Major cent discovery made here in the forum! - UPDATE

coppercoins

You might remember this thread.

Our friend Sadysta1 asked for Merz's opinion on whether this coin (his photos obverse and reverse) would cross from NGC PR66 to PCGS
with a CAM designation. In short, the general reply was that it might...the obverse was a bit weak for CAM.

Anyhow, when I saw the image of the reverse, the cameo didn't strike my fancy as much as what I saw around the top of the design. The motto appeared to be a bit thick, and from experience that told me there was at least a chance that the coin was a doubled die. I posted to the effect, and after a few PMs and a few days, I had the coin in my hand for inspection.

The results - my intuition paid off! The coin is indeed a doubled die, and a pretty nice one for an early proof. To set this up a bit, not all doubled dies are like the 1955 cent, but there are plenty out there that, to varying degrees, are doubled and are quite rare, thus worth quite a bundle of cash. This one is no exception. 1937 proof cents have a mintage of just over 9,000 pieces. With the number of Lincoln cent collectors out there, 9,000 is merely a drop in an ocean. This issue has 1/20 the mintage of the 1909S VDB! Any die variety on a coin with so little mintage, knowing that there are others out there that are "normal", indicating other die pairs do exist, is a true numismatic rarity!

This coin is a class 2 plus class 6 doubled die...that is, distorted and distended hub doubling has taken effect to create the design seen on this coin. Distorted hub doubling happens when a hub is warped out of shape and used to make an impression in a die. It typically leaves separation lines and extra thickness toward the center of the design and affects mostly the outer devices of the design. Distended hub doubling happens when a hub is used to impress the design into an improperly heated die and it "mashes" the design elements, creating extra thickness on subsequent usages. The combination of the two classes of doubling means that there is both extra thickness and separation lines between the "primary" elements of the desing and the "secondary" elements of the design.

Since proof dies are more closely inspected than their business-strike counterparts, and since proof dies strike a fraction of the coins that their business-strike counterparts strike, proof die varieties are MUCH rarer and are MUCH more sought after than their business-strike counterparts. Couple that with an early proof strike (only the second year of brilliant proof manufacture in Lincoln cents) with an already short mintage, and you have a REAL find here!

Photos to follow are of the same coin imaged above...

the whole coin

Micro images:

image #1 - The strongest part of the doubling that shows separation int he upper left wheat and in the first few letters (including the dot) in the motto.

image #2 - A continuation of the motto showing the spread and separation.

image #3 - Another continuation of the motto, and a marker - the die scratches under the US of PLURIBUS.

image #4 - The lower right wheat, showing extra thickness and light separation, especially noticeable in the thickness of the wheat stem.

image #5 - The lower left wheat, showing a distinct separation along its outer edge, to include the stem.

image #6 - A marker inage of the obverse showing the concentric die scratches that show on the face and on the coat.

image #7 - The other obverse die marker - a die gouge in between IN and GOD of the motto.

This issue shows a retail value of $125 in PR65 according to Coin World and Numismatic News. This particular die pair, considering the value and market for doubled dies, the issue itself and its rarity, and the likelihood that there are fewer than a dozen of these out there, would be worth anywhere between $300 and $500 given the retail value mentioned before coupled with the comparison between normal proofs and proof doubled dies that are similar, and a factor considered for mintage differences. Sadysta1's coin, however, is graded NGC PR66 and may cross to PCGS PR66CAM. If that's the case in the end, I am somewhat comfortable calling this a four digit coin, or very near it. At least $600-$750, likely higher.

To add, CONECA has a class 2 + 6 doubled die reverse listed for a proof 1937 cent, but the text description I have for it doesn't quite match up with this coin in strength of spread or in markers available. I do intend on hooking up with James Wiles and showing him these photos for comparison with his notes to see if we are describing the same die. If so, this would be the third known specimen of CONECA 1937 1c DDR-005. If they are not the same die, this one would be a unique known specimen and the discovery piece of a new die, possibly CONECA DDR-006. At any rate, it will be listed on coppercoins.com as the discovery piece of 1937P-1DR-001P (1937 Philly cent doubled reverse #1 proof) and will be credited to the owner of the coin, Sadysta1, as its finder.

That's my piece of good news, have fun collecting!

merz2

Let me start by saying Kudos to you both.There is nothing like in hand viewing.It should be attributed to both you and sadysta.I hope it is an unknown variety.And I sincerely hope PCGS gives it the works(attribution and CAM).Even if they down grade it to PR65 CAM Dbl Die,it should be worth 4 figures.IMHO

itsnotjustme

That's really neat finding a possible new proof vartiety!

Even if I could make those photos, I wouldn't know what I was looking at. How do you get those shots?

EVillageProwler

So, Charles, is that what you were going on about in the chat room last night?

EVP

bigtonydallas

Cool & Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dog97

Hey cool Sadysta1! You're pretty good there coppercoins to spot that from the scan he posted. It was a good scan and I looked at it again but I still don't pick up on it.

KAJ1

coppercoins,
Great eye....
Great pics..What did you use?

Sadysta1 ,
Congrats !!!!!!!!!!!

Kevin

coppercoins

Merz2 - I typically like to lay-low with my name being in the CONECA or NCADD files. I like helping others get their names in the files. It's just my way of doing things.

itsnotjustme - Please take a look at my rather detailed response in this thread.

EVP - In a word, yes.

Dog - The "give away" for me was the fact that even in his scan you can see that the dot between the E and P of the motto isn't a perfect circle as it should be. That, coupled with the fact that the rest of the motto seems to have some thickness in its horizontal letter features clued me to the classic signs of many doubled die reverses I have dealt with from this era. I was down right excited to see that it was on a proof!

KAJ1 - Same thread I posted for itsnotjustme.

merz2

Coppercoins
I do have a question.
If PCGS crosses it to PR66 CAM and gives Dbl Die Rev,what will it show up as in the Pop report ?
Will it show up as PR66 CAM or will they have to add a new line to the Pop report ?

coppercoins

My experience with PCGS is very slim, but I was under the impression that they would not "attribute" die varieties that are - let's be frank - minor in spread....even if they are rare pieces such as this one.

Theoretically, however, if they did do it, this would be a unique certified piece, thus commanding a new line and a POP 1. 1955DDO gets its own line, no?

merz2

I think this is one for David Hall himself to look at,after it is attributed.There are just some coins that PCGS has to decide on a case by case basis.I think he said as much in one of his threads or on the Q&A board.At least,I hope he'll feel it deserves special attention.

leothelyon

Hi Charles
Nice work! I can see the thickness in the EPU in the original thread since you mentioned it. Are you familiar
with a Ken Chylinski? I have seen his name in CW or NN and attributed to Lincoln varieties or M/M.

Leo

Dog97

You keyed in on it because the dot wasn't perfectly round? WOW!
I've looked at the picts 5 times now and I finally see some doubling in PLURIBUS UNUM.
Think I'll stick with the striking errors because I can see them.

coppercoins

Hi Leo,

I have heard of Ken, but have never dealt with him one on one. Unfortunately my schedule and the places I have selected to become involved (like this board and others similar to it) predicate who I know and who I don't. Typically it's the members of forums, especially those who are active members, and people who proactively contact me because they see my activity who are the ones I know and have dealt with at some time or another to one degree or another. Mr. Chylinski and I haven't crossed paths in this manner. If you think he would like to be in contact with me for sone reason or another, you are more than welcome to pass my site name and e-mail address to him. I enjoy conversing with other Lincoln cent die variety nuts!

sadysta1

: This is a good exaample of buying something with a gut feeling and endingup with something completly different, equally good or even better .

I would like personally thank coppercoins for his involvment and his terrific and wonderful excitment when it comes to coins, as well as kudos to his website.

Speaking of which did you build it yourself, if so what program did you use?

sadysta1

coppercoins

Thanks sadysta!

As for the site, Notepad. I actually "wrote" the entire thing. No HTML editor. I've been on it for a long time, and am a high strung perfectionist.

shylock

Great images & analysis Coppercoins, thanks for taking the time to share it here. As I said in the original thread, the forum at its best!

mdwoods

Amazing photos. Very nice job. Kudos are in order!! This is the kind of thing I like to read about on the US Coin Forum. mdwoods

MrKelso

Excellent Photograph's Great find Congrad's to all.

MacCoin

coppercoin you are the man!!! after you told us what to look for and looking at it for a half hour I finely see it.

1jester

Congrats, sadysta! Nice find and photos, coppercoins! Thanks for sharing with us.

rikker

Thanks for the education! Great photos! It is great to see this kind of post here. Only after seeing the pictures , I think I have to go to my room and look through all my coins again.

MrKelso

When will we read about it in Newmismatic news?

leothelyon

When will we read about it in Newmismatic news?

Ya Chuck,
Everyone who responded to this thread, who are true collecters want credit for verifying and seconding your findings when you make headlines in NN. LOL Just joshing here but when it does let us know.

Leo

sadysta1

if coppercoins wants to write an articles I have to problem with it. Just mention my name (and the tough spelling of it) and send me a copy.

coppercoins

I'm not sure a mainstream published article is in order here, I'll have to give that one some thought. If it's a newly discovered die, I just might...but if it's another DDO#5 as described in the CONECA files, probably not.

coppercoins

The following e-mail was sent to James Wiles of CONECA this morning...we will see what the outcome is.

---------begin---------

Hello Dr. Wiles,

I am sending this message to ask about a coin I currently have in my posession but cannot send to you - it's not mine. I would like to share some photos I have taken of the coin and ask if you think, by judging from the photos, that it could be PR-5-R-II-C+VI. It matches, generally, with the attributes of CONECA die #5, but the marker mentioned in the variety master listing on the CONECA site is not present on this coin. Given that markers come and go with die state (much less so with proofs, generally), I don't give 100% credence in them, I'd rather match up the attributes themselves. Without photos of CONECA die #5, however, this isn't possible.

I would much appreciate you taking a look at the list of photos below and letting me know, with the limited information they give, whether or not you think there is a possibility that this coin matches the die you have listed. If it does not, I will do what I can to talk the owner of the coin into sending it to you for full attribution. If you think you can attribute this coin via the photos, let me know and I will send a check for the attribution fee.

Thanks ahead of time. BTW, this coin is in an NGC PR66 holder, and has light to medium cameo frost on the reverse, and very light cameo frost on the obverse, in case that helps. The owner is considering crossing it to a PCGS holder. If this is a new die, please credit the find to (name given). If you need additional photographs of specific areas, let me know and I will take them immediately.


left wheat lines and "E . P" of motto:
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/1937/1937p1dr001m.jpg

"PLUR" of motto:
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/1937/1937p1dr001ma.jpg

BUS . U of motto:
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/1937/1937p1dr001mb.jpg

Lower right wheat:
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/1937/1937p1dr001mc.jpg

Lower left wheat:
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/1937/1937p1dr001md.jpg

Concentric die scratches on face (extend to coat as well):
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/1937/1937p1dr001me.jpg

Die gouge between IN and GOD:
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/1937/1937p1dr001mf.jpg


Charles Daughtrey
CONECA Member N-3245
cd@coppercoins.com

merz2

coppercoins
I don't see what more you could do.Kudos!!!! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and sadysta.

sadysta1

I hope he answers quickly, the suspense is killing me. Coppercoins if he insist on seeing the coin go ahaed and ship it to him, registered insured of course

MrKelso

Very exciting waiting for the reply.

coppercoins

<< <i>I hope he answers quickly, the suspense is killing me. Coppercoins if he insist on seeing the coin go ahaed and ship it to him, registered insured of course >>



I'll let you know if it comes down to this...of course he would have to reply to the e-mail first, which could take a couple of days. The coin is secure in my firebox until then. Thanks for being patient!

coppercoins

Dr. Wiles of CONECA responded this morning:

--- begin ---

Charles:

It appears to be an early die state of DDR-005. Nice looking coin.

Thanks,

James Wiles

--- end ---


I do believe this to be the first known specimen of this die in this particular die state, so it is still a very important find, even though this die had been reported before.

coppercoins

Sadysta1,

I congratulate you on the coin you own - I wish it were mine, albeit this one has a home and must be returned. I am going to shoot some more detailed shots of some of the more minor markers tonight, then send the coin home tomorrow. I will hate to see it go, but will have fond memories of having been the first to really see it for what it was.

Thanks for your trust and patience through this period of time.

sadysta1

You are quite welcom It's been a pleasure. It's too bad it's not a new variery but still a lucky find. Off to PCGS it goes!!!!!

Trime

Wow!
I thought I was obsessive compulsive and overly descriptive of my coins but three hats off to you guys!
In my opinion this type of study keeps you off the streets.
I will use this as a template to read again about the multiple forms of doubling and the basis for the defects.

coppercoins

<< <i>Wow!
I thought I was obsessive compulsive and overly descriptive of my coins but three hats off to you guys! >>



You should see what happens when it gets down to the nitty gritty of a minor split serif 1960D RPM worth three bucks at best. Like I always say, it's eccentric, I know....but it's what I love to do. Coin detective work!

sadysta1

My profile has been updated to reflect the newest discovery