1878 Morgan VAM help
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I was wondering if anyone familiar with Morgans can give a VAM number for an 1878 7TF Morgan I recently bought? It has some characteristics on the obverse which should help. There is slight doubling on the 6th and 7th stars to the left of the date, at the top of the "E" and "P" in "E Pluribus" and the inside right serif on the "R" in "Pluribus" is missing. There is also some very obvious missing detail from die over-polishing at the bottom of Libety's nostril and just in front of her eye which leaves an oval of field but has the bridge of the nose intact.
On the reverse there is missing detail on the middle of the eagle's left wing where the long feathers join the short feathers, probably from more over-polishing.
Thanks.
Al H.
On the reverse there is missing detail on the middle of the eagle's left wing where the long feathers join the short feathers, probably from more over-polishing.
Thanks.
Al H.
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I'm anxiously awaiting my new copy of the VAM book. Till then here is what vamlink.com has to say on the 7tf varieties:
10. 1878-P 7-TF VAM 70 "Doubled R-I-B" variety. Similar to 8TF VAM 5 obverse, the VAM 70 enjoys the highest premium for any 7-TF B1 Reverse.
11. 1878-P 7-TF VAM 100 "Type I Obverse". What's unusual here is that this obverse is normally found only with 8-TF Reverses! Usually available.
12. 1878-P 7-TF 115, 199.1 "Tripled Leaves & Cotton Bolls". Newly discovered VAM 199-1 has same obverse as VAM 115 is now part of the Top 100.
13. 1878-P 7-TF 117, 141 "Tripled Star". Strong tripling on the second star to the right of the date makes these easy to identify. VAM 117 is scarcer.
14. 1878-P 7-TF VAM 171 "B" Reverse. The "Tripled R" in PLURIBUS is dramatic. Same Obverse as VAM 220 which has Rev. of '79. Big premiums.
15. 1878-P 7-TF VAM 203 "C" Reverse. "Short Leaf" at front of Liberty's head-dress. In years past these were considered the top Rev. of '79 variety.
16. 1878-P 7-TF VAM 220 "C" Reverse. "Tripled R" in PLURIBUS. The VAM 220 is now the top Rev. of '79 variety. Less than 10 BUs known.
17. 1878-P 7-TF VAM 223 "C" Reverse. "Over-polished 'L' in LIBERTY on head-band. The second rarest Rev. of '79 variety. Infrequently encountered.
Frank
i went to the link before i posted. the only thing i don't like about it is that it assumes the viewer has knowledge of varieties, a necessary evil i suppose!!!
i went and looked at the coin again and can add that the top of the "L" in "Liberty shows signs of die over-polishing. the reverse has the straight arrow feather, so i guess that makes it rev. of 1878? and the middle nock is long.
i have a picture that might help but no way to link.
al h.
<< <i>I was wondering if anyone familiar with Morgans can give a VAM number for an 1878 7TF Morgan I recently bought? It has some characteristics on the obverse which should help. There is slight doubling on the 6th and 7th stars to the left of the date, at the top of the "E" and "P" in "E Pluribus" and the inside right serif on the "R" in "Pluribus" is missing. There is also some very obvious missing detail from die over-polishing at the bottom of Libety's nostril and just in front of her eye which leaves an oval of field but has the bridge of the nose intact.
On the reverse there is missing detail on the middle of the eagle's left wing where the long feathers join the short feathers, probably from more over-polishing.
Thanks.
Al H.
Any way you can post a pic of obv and rev ? I just love the 78/7 There were so many changes taking place that the Var;s are plentiful According to what i was reading then Director Linderman was demanding so many changes to the design that every thing was getting screwed up. All sorts of doubling and other weird things going on.
I love this forem. It makes me pull out books and read what a great feeling it is to be able to read about historical things.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
Frank has given you some of the VAMS, but in all honesty, I probably can't help you without a very detailed scan, or actually seeing the coin. As you can see by Frank's response, there are in the neighborhood of 200 varieties for 1878. Yes, you can eliminate 8tf, most of the 7/8tf, probably the reverse of '79 (you didn't say whether it was or wasn't), but that still leaves several to choose from. For instance, I doubt that only the two stars you mention are the only one's doubled, and sometimes even for correctly attributed varieties, you cannot always see some of the doubling (depending on die state) that is in the description. I'll be glad to try with an adequate image, and I'll try to see if I can narrow it down with the info you have provided, but a detailed scan, in addition to your description, would be best.
edited to add:
Overpolished "L" sounds like VAM 84, the most common B1 (long nock arrow) reverse. Is there a dash under the "8"?
there is a dash under the first 8 in the date.
al h.
i'm assuming with those characteristics all others are eliminated? that's pretty cool!!! any kind of a premium for it or an idea of rarity?? i would guess from your replies it's common?
i'm presently waiting on some submission forms from ANACS. gonna send in some dollars and a few other coins. how do they grade the missing detail?? is it seen as a normal characteristic for the date or does it lower the net grade?
al h.
Those are die diagnostics and so they aren't NORMALLY seen as a defect or weak strike, particularly, by those who attribute varieties. As I said, the VAM 84 is the most common B1 reverse; but here is a surprise or two for you
You should also find these other diags on this coin. You may be able to get a premium from a VAMer, or other interested in such varieties, but the average collector may not want to pay for them. Here goes:
Check the stem of olive branch just below top three leaves for doubling; the bottom crossbar of the "D" in dollar is broken, and "tada" you MAY be able to find a clashed "E" witihn the triangulated area of the tailfeathers, the wreath left of the bow and the upper arm of the bow.
If it is a clean 62 or better, I am willing to relieve you of this coin. VAM prices as of last publication are:
XF40 14 - 18 Greysheet 18 - 20
AU50 20 - 25 25 - 28
MS60 30 - 40 40 - 44
MS62 40 - 50
MS63 60 - 75 58 - 64
MS64 150 - 165 160 - 190
The VAM prices were published before the influx of collectors
WOWZER!!!! i looked with a bit higher glass and it looks to have the clashed "E" you spoke of. it appears that the "E" is laying on the wreath with the open side pointing towards the tail feathers. very faint, but i used a 30x panasonic scope. does that change the VAM number??
al h.
Negative. All the diags I gave you nail it down as a VAM 84, particularly the overpolished "L" (Washed-out L), dash under the "8" (Dash eight) and the broken bottom crossbar of "D" (Broken D).
You more than likely also have a die crack from "denticles to the third star" to the right of the date, yes. It may even go thru #3 to #4. This is indicative of a "late die state" and why the "clashed E" was faint. The reverse probably has a continuous die crack running thru the legend, wing tips and denomination. Sometimes I wonder if the some dies were used until they shattered.
the reverse crack runs from the "T" in United to the "E" in States. funny, dog97 told me back in august that if i needed morgan help i could count on you and i guess he was right.
when i bought the coin i had it pegged as a 65 till i got it home under some good light and saw some tiny ticks and rub. probably a 63-64 and not quite good enough for the PL designation. i'll post when it comes back from ANACS. thanks for the help. you really nailed it down for me!!
al h.