Discussion 2: ADD A "FULL STRIKE" DESIGNATION
wondercoin
Posts: 16,973 ✭✭✭✭✭
Forget about SLQ's, Jeffs, Franklins and Mercuries - do not disturb those designations. NOW, FOR EVERY OTHER COIN SERIES, ADOPT A "FULL STRIKE" DESIGNATION AND WATCH THIS MARKET ERUPT EVEN FURTHER!! Anyone doubt 1940(s) gem Walkers with "FULL STRIKE" on the holder will go wild? Anyone doubt that myriad Buffalo Nickels with FULL STRIKE on the holder will erupt? Solve the Roosie dime (non-FB designation) issue easily with a FULL STRIKE designation. Hey, even those Memorial Cents with strong Memorial steps get the designation!!
Don't worry about the critics who say that it is impossible to pick portions of the coin to focus on. JUST DO IT!! Within a year, the FULL STRIKE designation will be the hottest thing out there. Watch premiums for the "right" Liberty Nickels soar, as they should. Watch premiums for the Shield Nickels with full shield lines, etc. soar. Watch Indian Cents move even higher!! Watch Seated Material with full head detail, etc that get the designation catch fire. The Barbers too!! These FULL STRIKE coins might get hotter than DHRC's top picks!! Remember you heard it here first
Think about it. Wondercoin
Don't worry about the critics who say that it is impossible to pick portions of the coin to focus on. JUST DO IT!! Within a year, the FULL STRIKE designation will be the hottest thing out there. Watch premiums for the "right" Liberty Nickels soar, as they should. Watch premiums for the Shield Nickels with full shield lines, etc. soar. Watch Indian Cents move even higher!! Watch Seated Material with full head detail, etc that get the designation catch fire. The Barbers too!! These FULL STRIKE coins might get hotter than DHRC's top picks!! Remember you heard it here first
Think about it.
Wondercoin Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
I've been saying this for years. And furthermore, I have always thought the FSB, FBL, FH etc. were stupid designations anyway. They are all overly specific ways of denoting a fully struck coin. Do away with all of them, and replace them with "FS" ... "Full strike." (Too bad "FS" also stands for "Fivaz-Stanton," as in Cherrypicker varieties.)
On the other hand, if coins were graded the way they used to be, even this FS designation would be unnecessary. In the old days, it was NOT considered good practice (by those who were honest) to call ANY coin a "GEM" (MS65) that was not well struck. And NO coin could EVER have merited a "Superb Gem" (MS67) designation without being fully struck. So there's a bigger question here: how is it that so many coins can get graded MS65 and above WITHOUT being fully struck???? Oh, yes, you'll tell me they have technically clean surfaces. Hummppphhh. That was never enough to be called a GEM in the old days.
My Sunnywood Collection of MS liberty nickels focused on coins that had as full a strike as possible, including obverse star radials and reverse left corn. No doubt, were PCGS to introduce an FS designation, my coins would have increased greatly in value. Some day, the smart folks who bought many of those coins from me will find that they made the right choices.
Speaking of liberty nickels, I recently compared two 1884's in PCGS MS65. One had an horrendous flat left corn (in fact the whole AREA around the left corn was even flat). The other had a gorgeous strike with full left corn (and it even had a few die cracks to prove it was MS, not proof). Most people would have valued these two coins equally, using only the Greysheet or similar publications as their guide. In fact, the two coins fetched similar prices, one on Ebay, one at auction. Which only brings me back to my favorite comment - and my favorite complaint about the way coin business is transacted today: "BUY THE COIN, NOT THE HOLDER !!!!!"
Similarly, someone recently passed on my gorgeous FULLY STRUCK 1885 liberty nickel in NGC MS66* with magnificent surfaces and vibrant rainbow toning, only because there are other coins out there in MS67 holders. Tsk tsk. Those MS67's aren't necessarily any prettier !!! On the other hand, my 1912-D in NGC MS67 with rainbow color was not fully struck (as is typical for the Denver issue), and was passed over in favor of a better-struck PCGS MS66. Go figure. The lovely rainbow-toned 1912-D MS67 is the finest of the three so graded at NGC. PCGS has done none. It will be auctioned off in the Bowers January Rarities Sale ... (please bid accordingly !!!)
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Good luck at the FUN auctions with your coins. Wondercoin.
cause a new way to look at our coins. It would touch off a firestorm for some of
the coins which are hard to find nicely struck.
...And it would no doubt lead to an AFS designation for the just misses...
Also, what about die wear? A coin could have a full strike for that die and still not have all its details struck up.
peacockcoins
BAD IDEA!! Isn't strike supposed to be a characteristic of grading??
This is why I consider collecting Walkers like walking through a
mine field! I have seen 66 and 67's struck so flat across the hand
they make me ill. This is also why I consider many Franklins
overgraded (because of toning) and undergraded brilliant coins
in 65 with great luster and spectacular strikes. The dangers of
"condition-rarity" will collapse the coin market like a house
of cards at some point, which is why I am seriously thinking about
getting out before I get burned bad!
BAD IDEA!! Isn't strike supposed to be a characteristic of grading??
This is why I consider collecting Walkers like walking through a
mine field! I have seen 66 and 67's struck so flat across the hand
they make me ill. This is also why I consider many Franklins
overgraded (because of toning) and undergraded brilliant coins
in 65 with great luster and spectacular strikes. The dangers of
"condition-rarity" will collapse the coin market like a house
of cards at some point, which is why I am seriously thinking about
getting out before I get burned bad!"
Flykite: You are all over the board with your comment. First, you think it is a bad idea. Then, you point out all the MS66/67 Walkers struck so flat it makes you sick (hence, you would appreciate a FULL STRIKE designation to only collect the Walkers that get the designation - right?). Then, you mention Franklins that have enjoyed a special designation for years and have remained popular to collect with the designation (as you know, most people collect Franklins with FBL). Now, we all know MS Franklins with (3) wisps of hair and strong "Pass and Stow" are other important strike characteristics and consider that if a grading company was to consider a FULL STRIKE designation for a Franklin (which I said they should leave alone because of what was put in place already) they might have required additional strike characteristics to be present beside simply a couple of BOTTOM bell lines to be full (not even the top bell lines) as PCGS now requires. In other words, Flykite, your concerns may be in place right now because there was not a FULL STRIKE designation in place for the Franklin series. A perfect coin is those 1954(s) Franklins with (2) bottom bell lines full and the lettering on the bell weak as heck and a poor obverse strike as well getting an FBL designation. That is the type of coin that might not be deserving of a "FULL STRIKE" designation. Kick around the notion a bit longer
give one any idea of the strike, or the relative rarities of coins which are fully
struck. To me it doesn't much matter if a coin lacks detail because of worn dies,
or misalligned dies, or weak strike, or improperly prepared dies and hubs, or even
wear. There are MS-60's which have beautiful clean strikes and MS-67's that don't.
Certainly if the full strikes would get the designation then many coins would emerge
that are difficult to find nicely struck. Those who have little interest in strike already
tend not to get these coins since they are valued more highly by those who do care.
I would be all for it if there was a "standard" by which "all" grading services graded our coins. Until then, leave well enough alone.
The knowledgeable collector will continue to search for, and find, better struck coins without paying a premium (cherrypicking). Coins at auction will continue to receive higher prices, as they do now, if they are PQ.
Unless I'm missing something... It ain't broke, so... Don't fix it.
That being said, if we did go to universal strike designations I would prefer designating a qualifying coin as well struck for the date, and perhaps limit the designation to something like 30% of the coins graded. In giving the designation, all strike crucial areas should be considered. Well struck for grade would allow for slightly different standards by date. A well struck for date 53S Franklin would not have to look as good as a well struck for date 48P Franklin. I think this would be a much better way to do things for people looking for better coins. After all, an almost FBL 53S Franklin carries little or no premium to a regular 53S, whereas a FBL example trades at what, 100x? Yet the first may have a better overall strike. To me this would create more rational pricing.
Greg
Having graded more then half of the 1980S SBA $'s in MS67 I can tell you that most do not have a Full Strike. It may be full enough to make MS67 but not trully full.
It is just a fact that an exceptionally struck coin with a single tick on the cheek will technically warrant a MS64 grade yet may be the finest example known for strike detail. I believe this should be noted as a seperate part of the grading process.
Yes, it makes things more complicated but also more accurate.
<< <i>Well I guess if trusted the grading services enough, maybe I would go for that idea, on second, third and fourth thoughts, no. All is does is dumb down collectors. If you need a grading service to tell you a coin is fully struck, then maybe you should find another hobby. >>
So we continue with the present system where grade tells one nothing whatsoever
about strike, luster, marking, eye appeal or anything else. Grade is currently just a
convenient way for the unknowledgeable to price their coins. Grade tells one nothing
about the condition of a coin so pops can provide no clues about the condition of the
population.
Rating full strike is at least a baby step in the right direction.
- Coins that are full strike and receive low grades because of marks and distractions
- Coins that are struck well on one side
- MS67 & higher graded coins that are not full strike
Both the Sheldon and PCGS scales list MS64 as having average to above strike and MS67 as having nearly full strike.
With this in mind, a few things seem obvious (to me at least).
- A full strike designation of some sort, for MS66 and lower grades would be a nice idea for all series
- The current designations could be used to denote coins with one side well struck
- PCGS should review why all MS67 and higher coins don't have the special designations available for the series
- PCGS should review why so many average strikes appear as MS66's
I could be swayed that MS68 is the defining line for full strike. The scales aren't quite specific enough.
perfectstrike
You missed the point! The 66-67 flat hand Walkers SHOULD NOT
be graded 66-67 BECAUSE they are not fully struck. Again, if
strike is an important characteristic of grade (according to
PCGS' book) then we should'nt have FBL or FB or FS designations
at all, and I'd be fine with that. All this does is clutter things
up! It's like NGC's star, for crying out loud! Where does this end???
In reality only the coins in this series from 1916 thru 1926 would be able to qualify for a Full Strike as intended as first issued. Further more probably only the issues of 1916, 1917, 1920, 1923 would ever get the Full Strike designation as the rest almost always have some problems strike wise on the coin.
Take about a way to make some Rareties. Add a Full Strike designation to a 19S in 66 and watch the collectors drool.
Ken
You missed the point! The 66-67 flat hand Walkers SHOULD NOT
be graded 66-67 BECAUSE they are not fully struck"
Flykite: Show me where on this thread I said they should be (or shouldn't be)?
Ken: Yes, could you imagine a gem 1919(s) designated "FB" and FULL STRIKE" - the ULTIMATE COIN!!
How about a 1927(s) SLQ designated gem FH and FULL STRIKE!!
The more I think about it, the more natural the FULL STRIKE designation is to basically assist collectors in the "job" third party grading companies set out to do in the firstplace. Over time, novice and learned collectors would discover the great strike rarities in all series.
Wondercoin
So we continue with the present system where grade tells one nothing whatsoever about strike, luster, marking, eye appeal or anything else. Grade is currently just a convenient way for the unknowledgeable to price their coins.
If you look at the PCGS grading guide, for example, it lists things like strike, luster, etc. as qualifiers for different grade levels. You're never going to be able to completely describe every coin through grading, since you seldom find two coins exactly alike. The grading system is a guide. As such, it serves the site unseen market, for those who chose to purchase their coins that way. It also serves as a guage for comparison purposes, against like coins.
If grading is for the unknowledgeable, there's a lot of dummies out there. Some even publish price guides based on grades. There's a lot of others that use those guides to buy and sell coins, too.
<< <i>
If grading is for the unknowledgeable, there's a lot of dummies out there. Some even publish price guides base on grades. There's a lot of others that use those guides, too. >>
Yes, exactly. We have our coins graded on a wide variety of criteria and they are assigned
a net grade or market grade for the ease of determining a price. This grade does not tell
one anything about the relative strenghts of these criteria. The grade does little to narrow
the search for someone who wants booming luster and has little concern for die condition.
It does nothing to help the researcher who wants to determine the average number of strikes
made by the dies of a specific variety. It tells one nothing about how the coin looks except
that it looks like others which are worth "X" amount.
As unwieldy as the current system is it wouldn't be nearly so much an issue if it did a great job
of doing what it's designed to do- - price coins. But people are perverse and can't be nailed
down. Their tastes change individually and collectively. Identical coins with very different looks
which were worth exactly the same amount at a point in time may have very different values
at another point in time. Coins that appear one grade when seen at one time may appear a
very different grade when seen after a good meal and a cup of coffee. This may not affect the
professional graders a lot but it will affect the buyers of the coins to a greater or lesser extent.
It is the buyers who dictate the market price and by extension the grade.
We all see coins in the same grade bringing vastly different amounts of money. It is not that
the grading companies can't grade or that the bidders for the coins have lost their minds, it is
that people value the various components of grade differently. If collectors ask for more infor-
mation about grade there will be more and a FS designation would be a step in this direction.
Aghhhh! If you look at your first response to me, concerning my
comments on 66-67 Walkers with flat hands, you interpreted that
as a reason for me wanting a full-strike designation. NO!! My point
was they should not be graded that high to begin with.
This is all semantics anyway. I agree with you about FBL Franklins;
grading a flat 54-S as 65FBL IS bunk, and does an injustice to a bold
one. The answer? Don't grade the flat one a 65FBL in the first place!
Reward well-struck coins THAT MEET ALL OTHER GRADING CRITERIA with
the appropriate high-grade.
What good is a well-struck designation if the coin is MS-60? We have
all handled coins that are great in aesthetics but poor technically,
and vice-versa. Strike is part of the total package.
grading a flat 54-S as 65FBL IS bunk, and does an injustice to a bold
one. The answer? Don't grade the flat one a 65FBL in the first place!
Reward well-struck coins THAT MEET ALL OTHER GRADING CRITERIA with
the appropriate high-grade.
Flykite: I hear you and, with all due respect, I am not convinced you wouldn't embrace the FULL STRIKE designation on Franklins if you gave it time
To some extent I believe some of the better struck coins are in high demand and somewhat priced accordingly. Notice I said somewhat. Real bargins are available for those who will search with patience. Mercs are for sure and I believe from what reading that has been done here other series also enjoy this demand. Seems as though coins that are rare for a excellent strike last only a split second when they come up for sale. IMO eye appeal has got way more credit than it really deserves in the grading scheme. Sure you want a lusterous maybe somewhat toned coin but what good is that if half the detail is just completely blah.
For a Grading service to implement a Full Strike program they would have to hire a specialist from each series IMO. Sure the graders now know basically how to grade a coin but it is painfully obvious that they do not know the striking charteristics from year to year or mint to mint within some series. Heck the Merc series is a prime example of this and I am sure others exist.
By no means getting down on the Full Strike idea. Heck thats the first thing I look at when thinking about a purchase. Well most of the time as sometimes sight unseen coins are bought with the fingers crossed.
Ken
Ken
My last comment on this; I don't like this anymore than I like
FBL FH FS FSB FW (full wheat) or anything else we care to invent!
Strike is part of grading, and if the buyer doesn't want to take
the time to get educated on collecting and grading, then we
should not dumb-down the process. If a coin, ANY COIN, I look
at is graded say, MS-68, then I should feel confident in the
grede BECAUSE the grader takes everything into account.
<< <i> If a coin, ANY COIN, I look
at is graded say, MS-68, then I should feel confident in the
grede BECAUSE the grader takes everything into account. >>
So, do you prefer the best possible strike or the cleanest possible surfaces on your MS-68's?
edited to add question mark- - it had been intended as a rhetorical question.
A line from "Godfather I" "...must be getting too old; too grouchy"
You guys are driving me nuts!! I'm saying IT CAN'T BE A 68 unless
it meets ALL the criteria, and that INCLUDES STRIKE!! aghhhh!!!!