Does the fact that NCS has "conserved"...
RKKay
Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
a coin, in and of itself, make that coin undesirable? If a coin is "post-NCS" and slabbed NGC 65 Cam, and it looks strong for the grade, would you buy it, knowing NCS had gotten to it?
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peacockcoins
peacockcoins
Question#1.....Yes
Question#2.....No
i really do not care what was done to a coin if anything or where it has been or waht other holder/grade it was
just show me the coin currently as it is in the holder it is in and i will tell you weather i like it or not if i think it is a great coin or not if it is pleasing to the eye and if it has a fundumential reason to rise in value and as with the above this is my opinion
sincerely michael
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>Sure. Most coins have been worked on in one way or another. At least this way I know it was someone who knew what they were doing. >>
How do you know they know what they are doing?
I'm not a newbie and I have spent some time educating myself about alterations. Some alterations I can spot others I can't and I'm sure there are others a lot better at identifying altered coins then I am. When someone intentionally alters a coin in order to enhance it's appearance/perceived value (making it appear to be something it's not) and doesn't disclose the alteration IMHO it's fraud. At some point that fraud may be uncovered (if/when the coin is being sold to someone that can identify the alteration) and the owner of the coin gets hurt.
What I like about the NCS concept is the disclosure. The label tells me something about the history of the coin and that it has been processed to enhance its appearance. That information can be factored into my value assessment of the coin.
What I like about the NCS concept is the disclosure. The label tells me something about the history of the coin and that it has been processed to enhance its appearance. That information can be factored into my value assessment of the coin.
I must ask, for those coins NCS conserves and forwards to NGC for encapsulation, is there a hidden code that indicates it has been conserved? If not, there is no disclosure except for the coins NCS slabs itself.
K S
Russ, NCNE
Maybe them trying to "conserve or curate" a coin versus a newbie that has learned the answer to every problem on a coin is dip or "conserve". As a collector these days I like coins with their "original" surface. So anything that NCS does would take away from this and would be detected imo.
One of the main thing that bothers me about this service is how long have they been doing it? Do we have 5, 10, 15 year studies on the service they have done? Or is it possible these coins could "turn" in the slab, like those that have been "worked" on with other methods that we call "AT". Maybe some food for thought, maybe not.
the difference between NCS & the typical basement geek trying to drum up extra cash in doctored coins is that the NCS dudes presumably have learned to expend the extra effort/money to neutralize their doctoring effects, so the coin does not further deteriorate.
note that i'm not trying to slam NCS for what they do, but call it what it is: doctoring coins. then decide whether it bothers you or not.
K S
In my ideal world any coin that has been intentionally "worked on" should be identified as such.
Russ
I have no doubt that the guys at NCS know what they're doing. Brian Silliman is an acquaintance of mine (he was the coordinator of the 3 day ANA grading seminar I attended and we've e-mail one another over the years regarding coin related issues) and I have a friend that's done consultant work for NGC/NCS. That said I think Brian would be the first to tell you that "stuff happens" even to the experts.
stman
My friend is a chemist with over 30 years of numismatic experience. Brian has been involved in the coin industry (collector, dealer, working in the ANA authentication department, etc.) for I believe 20 years or more. These guys have seen it all and then some. They can probably spot the vast majority of coins that have been worked on. I have a pretty high level of confidence in them. That said "stuff happens."
Again, my issue is having the information to make an informed decision. Knowing that a coin has been worked on, as well as knowing who has done the work, is and should be a factor in determining the value of a coin (as well as the factors of demand, surviving population, average condition of the surviving population, etc.). If 99% of the surviving Bust Halfs have been clean the 1% that have not will probably sell for a significant premium putting them out of the range of many collectors. What's left for most collectors will be a choice of coins that in my ideal situation would be sold as having been cleaned. The market will make the appropriate pricing adjustments. If the vast majority of coins available have been clean and these are the only choices for the vast majority of collectors why hide that fact.
When someone attempts to hide the cleaning and doesn't disclose the process (in an attempt to benefit from the higher prices realized for that 1% that haven't been cleaned) it's fraud. It hurts the buyer (assuming at some point the fact that the coin was cleaned will be discovered) and it hurts the owners of the 1% by increasing (maybe temporarily) the population of the coins believed to be pristine and never altered.
P.S. I realize my ideal world is never going to happen
unless you're a foreigner who recently learned english, i find your comment hard to accept.
many words carry with it a positive or negative connotation. you know this; why else would you have put in the disclaimer. how can you justifiably claim a neutral message when you clearly chose a non-neutral vocabulary?
evp
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I have inquired about some kind of "secret code", but have not received any answers as of yet. If I buy a coin, send it off to NCS for a little "clean up", receive the coin back, and sell it to you, and you think "if NCS can remove that little bit of haze on this coin", and you resend the coin over to NCS......do they know they just had this coin in their posession and worked on it?
I think it's a good question, and figure there has to be some kind of indicator for them. Of course this "code"wouldn't be of any help, if you cracked the fictional coin out, and submitted it raw to NCS.
PMH, it all comes down to integrity, no? Disclosure is all well and good, but if a dealer is at a major show and passes off a "problem" coin to another dealer, and he/she in turn does the same, by the time the coin gets to the end user, no one knows where that coin has been. Of course if the first dealer did the disclosing, there wouldn't be a problem. There are some beaut's out there though.
The conservation stuff doesn't bother me. I'd purchase a coin "conserved" by NCS. No biggie in my mind.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
<< <i>note that i'm not trying to slam NCS for what they do, but call it what it is: doctoring coins. then decide whether it bothers you or not. unless you're a foreigner who recently learned english, i find your comment hard to accept. many words carry with it a positive or negative connotation. >>
there's a reason why certain words carry a negative connotation - because they should. doctoring coins is a negative act (in my personal opinion), plain & simple.
you know this; why else would you have put in the disclaimer. how can you justifiably claim a neutral message when you clearly chose a non-neutral vocabulary?truth is neither positive nor negative, though some might not like it. telling the truth (ie. "NCS doctors coins") is not a slam, but i know good and well that telling the truth offends a lot of people, especially those that can't tell the difference (ie. "conserving" vs. "doctoring"). sorry, but i won't apologize for the disclaimer, as it achieved it's desired purpose.
K S
<< <i>If I buy a coin, send it off to NCS for a little "clean up", receive the coin back, and sell it to you, and you think "if NCS can remove that little bit of haze on this coin", and you resend the coin over to NCS......do they know they just had this coin in their posession and worked on it? >>
no. as in, i seriously doubt it.
K S
I trust NCS to neutralize the coins properly, whereas someone else who treats a coin on his own might not take the proper care that NCS does. Better that these coins are "curated" by NCS (which has no real financial interest in the coins), rather than someone else who wont give a second thought about the future preservation of the coin or the collector who might end up with it.
Lastly, while in theory, I like the idea of having notations on the grading labels of coins which have been dipped or "treated", it isn't feasible or fair on a practical basis. I say this because, there are many, many coins, which have in all likelihood been dipped, but the grading services can't know for certain. It wouldn't be fair or accurate for the grading companies to make notations on the small percentage of the coins about which they were 100% certain but not make note of others, where the educated guess would be only 85% or 95% certain, for example.
so i guess it would bother you "a bit"...
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
To be precise, no one's asking you to apologize for anything. You said what you had to say, and you did it politely. No complaints from the peanut gallery on that score.
My only point is that you clearly meant to express the negative about the tasks that NCS do. You clearly meant to criticize NCS, albiet gently and politely. Many folks probably share your view. You all may actually be correct.
Why the disclaimer? What was the purpose of the disclaimer?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
to the topic at hand------whether or not NCS has done anything to a coin wouldn't really have any bearing on how i priced it or whether i bought it. in the end i have to judge for myself if i "like" the coins appearance coupled with it's price. short of each and every coin coming with some document, voluntarily filled out by each of it's previous owners, what else is left. the absurdity of expecting that is almost comical. as the 6 month old thread said........
al h.
The draw back is that most collectors (I said most not all) don't have the eye that many dealers (I said many not all) have for spotting coins that have been worked on. The collectors that don't and buy coins at full value get hurt and possibly an expensive education when they go to sell the coins to a knowledgable dealer.
<< <i>I trust NCS to neutralize the coins properly...Better that these coins are "curated" by NCS (which has no real financial interest in the coins) >>
mark, i don't think this is true. ncs certainly does have a real financial interest in the coins. as long as someone believes he can send in coins to be doctored & have their value raised , ncs collects revenue. danged right they have a financial interest! ie. if doctored coins brought no extra value, there'd be no incentive to send 'em in.
<< <i>My only point is that you clearly meant to express the negative about the tasks that NCS do. You clearly meant to criticize NCS, albiet gently and politely. Many folks probably share your view. You all may actually be correct.
Why the disclaimer? What was the purpose of the disclaimer? >>
hey evillageprowler, re-reading my response, hope you didn't take it harshly or personally - no wrath in your direction. let me try to explain my disclaimer as follows:
suppose we believe that ALL intentional alterations of a coin's appearance for the motive of making it appear "more attractive" to the typical coin collector is called doctoring. then is it not a "disclaimer" to say something to the effect of "but dipping is considered ok" a disclaimer? how about ncs's current humongous full-page coin-world ad (the 1 w/ the copper-spotted saint) that says something to the effect of "you can get copper spots removed w/out disturing the original surfaces of the coin", isn't that a disclaimer? the bottom line is that a "disclaimer" is being used to excuse coin doctoring. ie, today, it is OK to go ahead and do something that is wrong/negative, as long as you put a disclaimer in right up front to ease the negativity.
it is just so tiresome to hear the excuses, like "sometimes dipping is OK" & "if you can't tell it's been doctored its OK". it's analagous to saying "sometimes it's OK to murder someone if that person is a bad person anyhow". in my book, what NCS is doing is simply wrong, they know it, or else they wouldn't have to hide behind disclaimers to justify their m.o.
WHY do the folks who collect plastic allow this to go on? WHY isn't NGC/NCS held to the standards that they themselves purport to adhere to? ie. doctored coins don't get slabed? i wouldn't mind NCS's business one bit - IF they would just do away with the danged disclaimers, and just call their business what it is - a COIN DOCTORING BUSINESS.
the root of the problem is this senseless notion by those who collect coins generically, the notion that coins gotta be as perfect looking as possible. that's bull-pucky. why shouldn't a 150 year old coin LOOK like it's 150 years old?
hope my explanation makes sense - no disclaimers this time around
K S
The real problem in my opinion is that grading companies are already making "educated guesses" when it comes to slabbing.
Coins are body bagged that may or may not have been "doctored" while other coins are slabbed that may or may not have been "doctored". The grading companies do not always get it right.
Sorry, but as soon as you do something to change the coins appearance (especially if you are using chemicals) you are "doctoring" the coin. (doctor: To change or falsify so as to make favorable to oneself, To alter or modify for a specific end)
Now , what does the above mean? IMHO not very much. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you either like the coin or not, "doctored or not" and only pay what is a fair price to you.
Personally, cleaned coins have never bothered me as long as they weren't cleaned with a Brillo pad.
Joe.
First point, sounds like we need a better description for conservation vs doctoring. Most of the comments in this thread come down to the definitions of each. The concept of a universally accepted definition in this forum is likely not going to happen. For me, (remember this is me and you don't have to use my definition), conservation is an activity where a coins appearence is enhanced without doing significant damage to a coins surfaces. Coin doctoring is the effort to improve a coins appearance without regard to the coins surfaces. Obviously, for me, coin doctoring implies intent of hiding flaws by any means (a negative view I admit).
Second, I agree with the several comments on NCS does a good job. I have asked NCS to conserve or "doctor" several coins to date and they have returned them all saying that they would do more harm than good. Thus, another distinction I'd like to forward.....conservators care about the coin, doctors probably don't. A further point is agreement that NCS probably knows how to neutralize a coin correctly after a conservation or doctoring effort. I have 2 nice coins that are toning at a quick rate in PCGS holders (this is even in an intercept shield outer holder) that I know were obviously not neutralized correctly.
Third, for those that apply the word "doctor" in the broadest view, that is, to any coin that has been touched: Any blast white 19th century silver coin is VERY LIKELY to have been doctored or conserved. Unless the coin has been in an extrordinaryly low oxygen or low corrosive contaminate environment (low sulfur, etc.), silver naturally tones. It possible that some coins have made it 100 plus years looking like they came out of the mint, its just not probable. And just to cause a firestorm, usually the resulting toning is not rainbow like inless the circumstances are just right.
As most people, I buy coins that are eye appealing to me. I wouldn't care a bit if NCS had touched a coin. Just to throw in a twist, if I was looking at two equivalent blast white coins and if I knew that one of them had been conserved/doctored by NCS, I wouldn't pay a premium but I'd likely choose the NCS coin. At least I'd know where the coin had been.
keoj
keoj
"suppose we believe that ALL intentional alterations of a coin's appearance for the motive of making it appear "more attractive"
I also agree with a lot of what you said. I wouldn't go so far as to say that all intentional alterations of a coin's appearance is doctoring. Maybe this is splitting hair's but I consider doctoring an intentional alteration of a coins surfaces. I don't consider removing dirt or PVC (things that are not part of the coins surfaces) doctoring. This type of conserving (removing dirt or PVC) may improved the appearance of the coin but would not in my mind be considered doctoring since it either doesn't affect the coin's surfaces or prevents future damage to the coin's surfaces.
Dipping on the other hand is doctoring because it is an intentional stripping away of a portion of the coins surfaces. It may be a very thin layer that's being altered but it's still an intentional alteration of the coins surfaces. Whizzing, ATing, frosting, thumbing, etc. are all intentional alterations of or attempts to cover up the coin's surfaces to improve its appearance, in many case for the sole purpose of increasing the coins market value.
If someone doesn't liking toning and wants to dip there coins that's there choice. But dipping is an intentional alteration of the coin's surfaces and in my opinion should be disclosed when selling the coin. Maybe you like your coins with color and you've found a way to AT coins to your liking. It's your coin and you can do what you want with it but when it comes time to sell it I think you have an obligation to disclose to the seller that you've altered the coin's surfaces.
As far as toning in general being an alteration of a coin's surfaces the operative word in my post is "intentional." Removing the toning (via dipping) doesn't preventing additional toning or stop some agressive process that threatens to do further damage to a coin (putting the coin in a benign environment will arrest the toning process).
And yes, why is there this compulsion to make 150 year old coins look like they were made yesterday?
<< <i>...I consider doctoring an intentional alteration of a coins surfaces. I don't consider removing dirt or PVC (things that are not part of the coins surfaces) doctoring. >>
good point, glad you mentioned that. for example, if you accidentally spilled your coffee on a morgan dollar & rinsed it off under water, i would not call that doctoring. or if there was glue on the coin that was removed w/out affecting the patina - also not doctoring.
maybe a better def'n is of doctoring is something like: an act outside of a coin's intended environment that alters its existing patina
<< <i>And yes, why is there this compulsion to make 150 year old coins look like they were made yesterday? >>
exactly - that underscores the stupidity & insanity of dipping beautifully original coins to make them "brilliant".
K S
some conservation if done correctly by whomever and under the right circumstances and the coin was properly neutralized or whatever and after some time the coin doesnot turn and the eye appeal is at least good, then for me it is okie also if the conservation or wahtever you call it has helped the coin and has not damaged it more sometimes that is okie also
but it is a case by case coin basis!!!!!!! not something you can put a qualifier on and even then one may think it is okie the other not!
an example and i am sure there are thousands of examples
i do not have a problem with blast white strong cameo/deep cameo proof coins pre 1915
as for me they are as they came from the dies and these coins were one of the first strikes off of a new specially prepaired die, for the most part. and they are/were supposed to be showcases of the mintmasters art for that year!
now if i see a coin lets say a seated dollar that is monster blast white and is a strong cameo/deep cameo and gem or close to gem coin for me it is a no brainer the coin has been dipped. if i look at the coin and i know that it came from ncs and has been in the holder a year or longer the longer the better and it has not changed and also the coin has monster eye appeal and has the look of a great coin then for me
i have no problem with this coin
that is just me now i would have a problem with a coin lets say a proof barber half that is blast white monster and in the holder it has a haze on the reverse or wherever and the coin is super but of course this coin was dipped and not dipped properly and/or just not a coin ythat could benefit from a conservation and/or was not neutralized properly
weather it came from ncs or not the this is a coin i would not like
this coin i would have a problem with
also for me i do not like blast white higher grade choice gem and superb gem mintstate seated coins that they might be properly dipped and neutralized with great eye appeal to me they are gross and ugly as for coins minted to circulate and then to have their original patina stripped off i would not like thses coins at all as they to me are totally unnatural and not desirable to me at all
you see many high grade seated coins like this and for me the original coins mintstate, au, even circ grades that are fully original white coins with thick skins are grossly undervalued as such and the market will reward this in the up and coming years so for me if you are going to buy mintstate seated coins buy only great toned coins with great surfaces or great surfaced original thick skinned white coins!!!!!!!
sincerely michael