Need advice on a 1916d dime (sorry no pic)

LanLord

I have the opportunity to put a 1916d merc on layaway. It is in ef condition except for a nick across the 6 in the date. The nick is about 2 times the width of a hair and about 1/32" long. The entire date is easily identifiable with the naked eye.

As it is, the coin is marked VF, and I can take it for a measly $1400. Is the nick on the date a killer? This dime in the shape doesn't come around very often.

wingedliberty

I beg you to take my advise.

Never get a 1916D which is raw, the batch of counterfeits that came out in the early eightees are
extremely deceptive. PCGS,NGC, ANACS only. Protect yourself. I have been collecting mercs for 20
years. The 1916D has the best quality counterfeits, experts and graders at PCGS/NGC/ANACS, are
still fooled to this day.


Good luck
Brian.

LanLord

<< <i>I beg you to take my advise. Never get a 1916D which is raw, the batch of counterfeits that came out in the early eightees are extremely deceptive. PCGS,NGC, ANACS only. Protect yourself. I have been collecting mercs for 20 years. The 1916D has the best quality counterfeits, experts and graders at PCGS/NGC/ANACS, are still fooled to this day. Good luck Brian. >>

If the experts at PCGS, NGC and ANACS are still fooled, how do we know the slabbed ones are real?

KlectorKid

Good question

wingedliberty

The diagnostics on circulated specimens are harder to detect. At least with the grading services
you have piece of mind and a guarantee of authenticity.


Brian.

MrKelso

<< <i>I beg you to take my advise.

Never get a 1916D which is raw, the batch of counterfeits that came out in the early eightees are
extremely deceptive. PCGS,NGC, ANACS only. Protect yourself. I have been collecting mercs for 20
years. The 1916D has the best quality counterfeits, experts and graders at PCGS/NGC/ANACS, are
still fooled to this day.


Good luck
Brian. >>



I was thinking the same thing. It's all these books i have been reading of late. Be careful.

baron

I would be leery of a coin of this caliber that is not slabbed. While it is possible that a coin like this exists raw, and if the coin looks good for the grade, I would offer to pay the slabbing fee and purchase the coin on the basis of the grade assigned. I would stipulate a grading service that guarantees the grade. $1400.00 is not exactly an insignificant amount of money, at least not to me.

mr1931S

my dimes worth on this one...

whether i would buy a '16-D raw or not depends on the answer to the following questions,

1. do i know the seller?
2. do i know the seller?
3. do i know the seller?

This is one date i wouldn't buy raw from an on-line seller unless i had very satisfactory experiences (read that,"unusually" very satisfactory experiences) with him...

now,'16-D in a slab doesn't fit very well in a Harco album,for example,to display with the rest of your nice mercs...

The testing at ANA for counterfeit/altered coins is the best and most complete there is...as far as i know...ANAAB is the American Numismatic Association Authentication Bureau...

Does this seller stand behind his '16-D to the extent that if you were to send the coin to be authenticated by ANAAB (where you would get a photo-certificate if they find the coin to be genuine for you to proudly display with the genuine '16-D and other mercs in your Harco album),if ANAAB says NOT genuine,you get your money back plus costs of handling to include a 1-year ANA membership (unless you are already a member)? You must be an ANA member to submit coins to ANAAB for authentication...

after all,you're not interested in making his possible expensive mistake your expensive mistake...

find out what the seller is made of...get his guarantee in writing...more than one dealer has been taken on '16-D's...

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Never get a 1916D which is raw, the batch of counterfeits that came out in the early eighties are
extremely deceptive. PCGS,NGC, ANACS only. Protect yourself... >>



That quote bears repeating, yet again.

I'd never touch a raw 16-D. (Well, never say never, but chances are, I wouldn't take the gamble.)

There are plenty of nice raw coins out there, and many genuine 16-D Mercs that remain unslabbed, whatever the reason (and there is usually a reason). But...

Any $1400 coin I buy will be in PCGS, NGC, or at least ANACS plastic. This is particularly true for the 16-D Merc.

mr1931S

just would add this about '16-D and this assumes you can physically inspect the coin yourself...

look at the reeding...do the reeds line up all the way around? or are there one or more points of discontinuity? are the reeds defined the way you would expect for a vf/xf mercury dime? or do the reeds have one or more spots of what appears to be extra "wear"?

carefully,look at the reverse next to the rim all around (use at least 10x loupe with incandescent light)...any evidence of a seam or fine line indicates a '16-P' was hollowed out and fitted with a 'D' reverse from another 'D' merc with a 'D' similar to the 'D' used in 1916...

okay.reeds look good and can't find a seam along the rim on the reverse...

Was the coin nicely (fully struck)? no? pass on it...your inspection is over...most all genuine '16-D's as well as '16-P's are well-struck...for a vf or xf '16-D it should be evident that the coin,when freshly minted,was very sharp in appearance and some of that sharpness should still be able to be seen on a vf or xf example...most '16-S's were softly struck...

okay.reeds look good,can't find a seam,the '16-D is 'sharp' in appearance...

compare the 'D' on the '16-D to the 'D's' on pp.51-52 of "The Complete Guide to Mercury Dimes" by Lange and look for an exact match in style and position...look for evidence of solder...the 'D' used is very small...a really good soldering job would be very difficult pull off...so if there seems to be extra dirt or concentration of toning around the mintmark only,pass on the coin...

okay.reeds look good,can't find a seam,sharp appearance,'D' matches exactly to one of 'D's' shown by Lange which btw are ANAAB authenticated 'D's' used on '16-D (there are four of them)...
Also,"Detecting Altered Coins" by Harshke shows there were four working dies used to make the reverse of dimes in Denver in 1916...

it's probably a genuine '16-D if the answer is yes to the reeding matching,no to 'is there a seam?',yes to 'is it sharp?',yes to 'does the 'D' look right?

good luck LanLord!

LanLord

Well, seems like there is more than just a bit of concern over raw 16d mercs, even though this coin would have been from an extremely trusted dealer and one of the smartest coin people I know. I was partially put off by the scratch through the 6, so the additional concern with raw purchases of this type of coin just pushes me over the "walk away" line.

I appreciate everyone's opinions greatly. Thanks.

Anyone got a slabbed 1916d merc they are looking to sell?

fcloud

I would pass on the opportunity unless the dealer is willing to send it in for certification before you buy it. PCGS will not certify coins with damaged planchets. If the damage around the date is too bad, it may get body bagged.

TomB

I would not feel comfortable counseling you to go ahead with that purchase in this instance.

Also, to mr1874, the ANAAB no longer exists. It was officially dissolved this last year.

goose3

You'd be better off to offer the dealer the 1400 plus HIS expenses to have ANACS authenticate/grade the thing on their 5 day service. Maybe 40.00 total with shipping. You can print out a submission form and give to the dealer.

I would ask him to submit it so he can not later say someone switched the coin, etc. If the coin comes back genuine then you will agree to pay his 1440. If not, he's out the 40.00.

I would think if he is wanting to sell this 1400.00 coin that such a request is not a ridiculous one for you to make.

jdimmick

Not to add any thing more than what advice has already been said.

But coming from a key-date collector, there are some very good counterfiet 16-d's in existence. I'd would be very skeptical in purchasing one raw.

One additional fact, I have actually seen more counterfeit 16-d's in vf-xf grades than in lower grades.

One funny story but actually still true to this day, if you took the number of raw 16-d dimes currently being offered for sale in all publications, dealer inventories, at shows etc. and added this total to the number currently certified, the number of dimes greatly exceeds the original mintage of 264,000. (this was a true article written by a well respected merc dime enthusiast, few years back)
jim d

Mr1874, you must not use your PM
On the 16-d's, what I typically find is added mintmarks, that is possibly why they use higher graded coins so that the d's removed are easier to blend in and work with the surrounding coin surface. I do not recall ever seeing a upset from rim like you do on key-date buffalo's, possibly because of the reeded edge?? Long back I remember one modified date from an 18, but I thought it was a crude job and easily detectable.
jim

Also, Intresting comment on the inset(, I dont believe I have ever seen one of these examples in person).

Most of the people who I have found to be taken by the counterfiet coins are the ones who impulse buy, or dont take the time to investigate, check things out. Or think that there getting such a great deal and I was told it came from an old time collection.

mr1931S

>>Also, to mr1874, the ANAAB no longer exists. It was officially dissolved this last year.

Tom,that is too bad...they were the "go-to guys" for me...well,i guess a good thing can never last forever...

So does ANACS,the grading unit that spun off from the ANA a number of years ago,do authentication only now if that's what you want? Or do you have to have the coin encapsulated by them?Can one obtain a numbered photo certificate only for a coin they determine to be genuine?

it's no secret i like the photo-certificate concept especially for so-called collector grade coins...
putting a moderately worn '16-D dime in a PCGS holder seems kind of ludicrous to me...unless the rest of my circulated mercury dime collection is in PCGS holders,that is...of course no one wants to get burned and as has been pointed out there is the guarantee of authenticity if in a holder like PCGS.

i'm not advising anyone to necessarily "do-it-yourself" on authenticating but i think it's helpful to know some things about how coin forgeries are made and what to look for before taking the monetary plunge on that key coin...the thing is,if my '16-D is in a slab there's all that plastic between me and the coin...how can i be satisfied using my own expertise and knowledge that the coin is real? answer:i can't...i have to take the grading service's word for it...unless...i break it out with the hopes of obtaining a higher grade...then i could examine to my heart's content,
resubmit and pray that they will say it's still real...

>>>One additional fact, I have actually seen more counterfeit 16-d's in vf-xf grades than in lower grades.

jdimmick,what was the most common method of manufacture used on the counterfeit '16-D's that you saw?

hookooekoo

Don't buy Raw!
Don't buy Raw!!
Don't buy Raw!!!

I know I found a lot of dealers who had 16d's to sell, but it was funny that so many of them were in too much of a hurry to sell them, they were unwilling to wait for the coin to be graded.

Since you're saying you can purchase the coin on layaway, there isn't any reason the dealer should aggree to letting the coin be graded if your willing to pay the cost to grade the coin.

SarasotaFrank

I certainly cannot compete with the advise of this group of more expert collectors than I, but I had this very same discussion with Brian when I purchased a 16-D a couple of months ago, and his advice was well heeded.

If it is not slabbed, run!

Even the best can be fooled by a determined craftsman. While my own 16-D is a meager G-4, at least I have the perceived authenticity of the surrounding slab to protect my investment. While I am not an expert on the liabilities of the grading company, in this case NGC, should I opt to sell it at some future time, and it turns out to be less than genuine, the folks at NGC will be the ones who will have some 'splainin' to do.

Conder101

As TomB says ANACS was voted out of existance at the ANA convention this past Augus and officially closed down in October.



<< <i>You must be an ANA member to submit coins to ANAAB for authentication... >>



Actually ANAAB accepted submission from anyone. Membership in the ANA was not required but the fees were lower for members.

ANACS does still offer authentication only and they will slab coins and simply label them Genuine. Very few people do that though since the fee for authentication only and authentication + grading are the same.

mr1931S

<< You must be an ANA member to submit coins to ANAAB for authentication... >>
Actually ANAAB accepted submission from anyone. Membership in the ANA was not required but the fees were lower for members.

The first coin i sent in to ANAAB was when i wasn't yet an ANA member.They told me that they would evaluate the coin i submitted for authenticity as a one-time favor and then suggested i needed to become an ANA member before making future submissions.

As i was thinking about this '16-D business this question came to mind:

i read remarks here that indicate counterfeit '16-D's' have been encapsulated.Is it unethical to submit a coin,such as '16-D dime, for certification to one of the grading services after you have concluded,without any doubt in your mind,to be a highly deceptive counterfeit but might pass as genuine at a grading service?Is there obligation on the part of the submitter to disclose to the grading service his concerns and reasons why he questions the coin's authenticity?

An example might be:i have done my own careful examination of the raw '16-D' and found ever so slight evidence of a seam along the rim where a 'cut out' reverse was precision fitted into a hollowed out '16-P obverse.Also,the 'D' is the right style but is ever so slightly out of the exact position (In other words,the 'right' reverse was used to make the fake.)The piece is determined by me to be a highly deceptive counterfeit.Am i ethically obliged to disclose my suspicions about the coin to the grading service that would be evaluating this piece for it's authenticity?