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Are PKOK IKEs National Treasures?
Typetone
Posts: 1,622 ✭
On a related thread we are discussing whether PKOK IKEs are naturally toned or AT. I argue they are natural. There are several reasons, but one of the main reasons is that if they are AT, if they carry a price premium, and if they are slabable, which are all true, then where are the other PKOKs. Where are the PKOK Morgans, Walkers, Washingtons, etc. The only other PKOK pieces we know of are a few pieces from the IKE or close to the IKE era. I conclude they are a unique hoard not a currently manufactured product. Also NGC, ANACS, and PCGS all certify them, I still accept there expertise. This is just an introduction to this thread, not a new arguement on AT vs natural which is the topic of the other thread.
I made the statement that the PKOK IKEs are a national treasure, to be preserved and displayed. Wondercoin took exception. Let's assume for now that PKOK IKEs are natural, and not subject to new production. Are they a national treasure? Here is my arguement for why. What do you think?
The IKE dollar is itself a symbol of the "Best Generation", for most of us boomers, our parents generation. They fought and won WW2, and created the greatest advances in science and technology the world has ever seen. Argue if you want about the wisdom of all these advances, however one can not question the importance of what they accomplished. The Eisenhower dollar, of all our coins, best symbolizes this generation. Eisenhower was the visable leader of the generation. He is the person many of our parents still think of as their commander and chief. More than Roosevelt, he symbolizes who they are. The moon landing is a direct product of the advances in technology they created. Roosevelt was for our grandparents, Kennedy was for us, IKE was for our parents. Plus the IKE dollar stands in the proud tradition of U.S. large size dollars. Be a cynic, made of C/N and not silver. Sure, well some of what our parents gave us was low cost mass production, maybe lower quality. Even its negatives are historic and tell a story. The coin symbolizing an important generation deserves to be preserved.
OK, but most IKEs are poorly made and ugly. Put a typical 1971 BU IKE in the Smithsonian? Give me a break. However, a PKOK is beautiful beyond belief. A frog turned into a princess. These are beautiful numismatic rarities (remember the natural toning assumption of the thread). Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. Look at my ICON. I am a toning affectionado, and mostly a classic collector. I own magnificant toned capped bust and seated pieces, rainbow Morgans, and Liberty 5c. Look at my 1942 proof Mercury dime in my registry set. I have seen first hand some of the wonderful toned commems. When it comes to toned pieces, I have seen and owned some of the best. However, in my opinion, the PKOK IKEs are head and shoulders above all when it comes to beauty and eye appeal. Especially in grades of MS65 and above, they are masterpieces. In you disagree on this point, please indicate whether you have actually seen any real PKOK IKEs live, and not just an image.
For their historic significance and beauty, I think they have a place in the Smihsonian, right next to rainbow Morgans. And, a place in the Smithsonian is more or less my definition of national treasure.
Greg
I made the statement that the PKOK IKEs are a national treasure, to be preserved and displayed. Wondercoin took exception. Let's assume for now that PKOK IKEs are natural, and not subject to new production. Are they a national treasure? Here is my arguement for why. What do you think?
The IKE dollar is itself a symbol of the "Best Generation", for most of us boomers, our parents generation. They fought and won WW2, and created the greatest advances in science and technology the world has ever seen. Argue if you want about the wisdom of all these advances, however one can not question the importance of what they accomplished. The Eisenhower dollar, of all our coins, best symbolizes this generation. Eisenhower was the visable leader of the generation. He is the person many of our parents still think of as their commander and chief. More than Roosevelt, he symbolizes who they are. The moon landing is a direct product of the advances in technology they created. Roosevelt was for our grandparents, Kennedy was for us, IKE was for our parents. Plus the IKE dollar stands in the proud tradition of U.S. large size dollars. Be a cynic, made of C/N and not silver. Sure, well some of what our parents gave us was low cost mass production, maybe lower quality. Even its negatives are historic and tell a story. The coin symbolizing an important generation deserves to be preserved.
OK, but most IKEs are poorly made and ugly. Put a typical 1971 BU IKE in the Smithsonian? Give me a break. However, a PKOK is beautiful beyond belief. A frog turned into a princess. These are beautiful numismatic rarities (remember the natural toning assumption of the thread). Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. Look at my ICON. I am a toning affectionado, and mostly a classic collector. I own magnificant toned capped bust and seated pieces, rainbow Morgans, and Liberty 5c. Look at my 1942 proof Mercury dime in my registry set. I have seen first hand some of the wonderful toned commems. When it comes to toned pieces, I have seen and owned some of the best. However, in my opinion, the PKOK IKEs are head and shoulders above all when it comes to beauty and eye appeal. Especially in grades of MS65 and above, they are masterpieces. In you disagree on this point, please indicate whether you have actually seen any real PKOK IKEs live, and not just an image.
For their historic significance and beauty, I think they have a place in the Smihsonian, right next to rainbow Morgans. And, a place in the Smithsonian is more or less my definition of national treasure.
Greg
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Greg, I not only took exception, but also pointed out that I paid the highest price ever achieved on an Ike Dollar at public auction (don't forget that part as I also like Ike dollars)
Anyway, your definition of "national treasure" would result in nearly all nice coins potentially falling into the broad definition. Under your definition and summary, the Susan B. Anthony coin might be viewed as one of the most important coins of the 20th century (and perhaps it is to some). Since I would personally love to see the Smithsonian's coin exhibit extended to cover another floor of the building (those trains simply take up too much room don't you think
Greg: If dbldie55 and myself agree on an issue, you can rest assured it is correct
TRUTH
I know if the IKEs are real or AT, I just can't say. I took an oath of secrecy. I think they are fabulous coins. The original dealer sold many of these for $100 each back in the late 80's, and many were a very hard sell. Now they sell for hundreds, if not thousands. This market was created by others, and those who were willing to pay the money. I am fortunate enough to know 99.9% of the story, and the story is well worth the hundreds of dollars of premium. my personal opinion is they are very neat coins, but that's about it. Maybe a book in the works for me? Naaaaah!
TRUTH
Peac@ck Ikes, I have never seen in person. I will take your word on them. I do have to say that the CN Ikes are so poorly struck on blanks that seem to have been conditioned with a half moon file
Mitch,
If only you had the CN Ike dollar in your current want list as the 18th coin you are seeking out, I would really believe you .
<< <i>(don't forget that part as I also like Ike dollars) >>
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
peacockcoins
How many [non collectors] really have seen an IKE and even care? Ike a great president? Doubt it. A military leader? Yes, maybe.
$10k for a modern? No freaking way! I wonder how many are sitting out there in MS66+, toned, whatever in someone's Whitman or Dansco album or maybe even velor satchel, someday to be graded.
If there are Morgan and Gaudens hoards there are IKE hoards waiting to be discovered.
BTW, PKOKs are AT.
> I wonder how many are sitting out there in MS66+, toned,
> whatever in someone's Whitman or Dansco album
With today's PCGS grading standard, the chance is remote and close to ZERO. To me MS66+ is MS67. Did you ever see any 1971-1974 P-mint MS67 Ike?
We cannot find them in the last 17 years. Most likely, we won't see any in the next 17 years.
With the $$$ the high end Ikes are bringing, you would think that more and more would be submitted, but they're not.
Send me all your high end ikes and PKOK's slabbed or not. I've been laughed at for picking through blue ikes and mint sets, but what I found back included 2 MS67 cald Ikes worht over $5000 per coin. This amout would buy a few MS67 Morgans, which could not have been cherried.
For those who slam the series, they have not seen a truly clean Ike. The analogy that I would draw is how Rick Tomaska talks about cameo's: If you haven;t seen a true heavy+ cameo, you can not appreciate the real beauty of a cameo. I seriously doubt most people have seen a true MS67 Clad Ike.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Thank you for the complement, and for finding my first thread. Actually, I use the term PKOK because that's what Jim Barlow uses as an abbreviation. Spelling out the entire word gets kicked out of the PCGS filter. Keith showed me how to bypass it, but it's just too complicated for me. Most of the PKOKs are very high quality. No, the baggy ones, even if pretty are not national treasures. But the higher grade 65s, 66s, 67s, and 68s are really worth preserving. They have the combination of quality (rare for an IKE), beauty (also rare for an IKE), and great symbolism.
Mitch:
I don't care if the non-collecting public doesn't care about IKE dollars or know what they look like. The non-collecting public probably doesn't know anything about seated coins either. A coin placed in the Smithsonian right in the main collection is a national treasure. Very different from a coin being in a museum somewhere. Yes, I believe a PKOK IKE should be right there with the best. Even if AT, who really cares? Perhaps that makes them even more symbolic of the age.
Braddick and Truthteller:
If you fellows really know something how about passing it on. If you were sworn to secrecy, you already said too much. Truthteller, did you tell Braddick? If so, you already broke the discipline. So come on spill what you know!!!
Greg
TRUTH
No seriously, there's money in there.
-KHayse
<< <i>Any cash offers on the table?
My PM from TRUTH (of about a year ago) is NOT for sale.
Hey, bottom line: These Ikes have been $500.00 coins, give or take, for the last fifteen years. Don't you think if someone REALLY perfected the method (again!) they would have cashed in?
-Don't forget one important fact that is being missed, over and over, when you compare the Morgans to Ikes. Ikes are either 100% Clad or 60% Clad. Morgans are 90% silver. Hmmmm.....
peacockcoins
The Kryptonite turned a couple hundred Ikes wonderful colors before Lex Luthor
spirited it away for his evil plans.
Now no more Ikes can be colored until Lex finishes with the Kyptonite (kills superman).
Am I close?
> My PM from TRUTH (of about a year ago) is NOT for sale
Don't you want to hear my offer first?
-KHayse
Enjoy the illusions. Don't soil the adventure by trying to figure out how it is done.
peacockcoins
It's enough for me to know that he doesn't really DO it.
I'll just wait for the old adage to come true, two men can't keep a secret unless
one of them is dead.
-KHayse
<< <i>I'm not impressed by David Copperfield. I don't care how he does it. It's enough for me to know that he doesn't really DO it. I'll just wait for the old adage to come true, two men can't keep a secret unless one of them is dead.
How about David Blain?
peacockcoins
**********************NEWS FLASH*********************
*********NEWS FLASH***************NEWSFLASH********
Braddick shoots Truthteller dead for illegal left hand turn in Encinitas. PKOK story may now be revealed. News at 11.
TRUTH
What happened to the IKE? Who cares?
Dear modern haters,
Please don't post in this (or any other modern related) thread.
Every five posts or so my mind automatically inserts a
"you know the classic collectors don't give a crap about this".
Thanks anyway.
-KHayse
ps Jeez, it's like talking about Jews with Palestinians.
peacockcoins
I love Ike dollars and all other dollar series !!!
I also love Major Circulation Strike Type Sets, clad Washingtons ('65 to '98) and key date coins !!!!!
If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't we have more happy people ??
<< <i>Eisenhower was the visable leader of the generation. He is the person many of our parents still think of as their commander and chief. More than Roosevelt, he symbolizes who they are. The moon landing is a direct product of the advances in technology they created. Roosevelt was for our grandparents, Kennedy was for us, IKE was for our parents. >>
Oh, puhleeze! Let's not rewrite history. Ike was an able military leader, but had few other qualifications to be president. He was fortunate to hold the office at a time when many Americans were tired of dealing with problems abroad. I've heard of no historians who consider Ike to be more than an average president at best. I suppose it depends on when our parents grew up, but FDR was our leader through the Depression and almost all of WWII, and at the time of his death in 1945 was the only president some of our parents could remember. Americans recall the '50's with fondness because the TIMES were great, not because we had a great LEADER. The country was self-absorbed and on a spending frenzy, similar to the 1920's (who considers THOSE presidents to be great?), acquiring the consumer goods that were new, unavailable during the war, or unaffordable during the '30's. I'll bet most US citizens that lived through the '50's remember Ike more for being a golfing president than for any accomplishments as a statesman.
NOW, for PKOK Ikes. Maybe not a national treasure, but they may be the most beautiful examples of a mediocre design. I've seen only proof PKOK Ikes; no MS examples. If there are MS pieces, I'd like to know how they were stored over the years. I have some that have been in paper wrappers since the early '70's that aren't toned. Maybe I live in too dry a climate for them to noticeably react with their environment.
Jim
Before we continue on your patriotic and anatomy lead, my response was per your post .. "I placed an IKE on the railroad tracks near my house tonight. The railroad was instrumental in opening the west. Sounds like an national treasure to me. What happened to the IKE? Who cares? ". You probably will not hear any modern collector say anything about placing a 1913 nickel (or even a more rarer nickel, which, BTW would be considered modern, the 1965 proof) and not care.
Your opinion on the PKOK Ikes for "National Treasure" was a no, thank you very much. My opinion on the PKOK Ikes for "National Treasure" is probably (hold on to that PR65DCAM nickel) is also a no, but I would like to continue to stay with the thread and enjoy the new thoughts/discussion about the (call it hype, urban legend, folklore, whatever) about the PKOK Ikes ... what was that about freedom ?
I love Ike dollars and all other dollar series !!!
I also love Major Circulation Strike Type Sets, clad Washingtons ('65 to '98) and key date coins !!!!!
If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't we have more happy people ??
pm me please with the answer as I may not check this thread for the answer.
thanks
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
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to say what pieces of copper nickel crap they are. Indeed you'd have to look pretty
hard to find any slams of the old worn out same 'ol same 'ol classics.
There may well be one or two '65 proof nickels, there are rumors they exist.
I can't believe a jock strap or a production issue coin can be a national treasure. Perhaps
an Ike galvano or something. Even a rare Ike wouldn't seem to qualify unless the term
is very inclusive.
-KHayse
Dbldie:
I must be difficult for you. Like you I am a dedicated Liberty 5c collector because I really like them, and yes because I think they are a good value. Even before buying the Frank Thomas set I had been selectively buying nice pieces when available, and continue to buy nice pieces. While I don't do much with moderns which I define as 1965 to date (about 5% of my collection), I do love IKEs as much as any coin. I think PKOKs, however they toned, are magnificent, and are the best of the various groups of well known toned pieces. Dbldie, I love your Lib 5c site, like you insights on coins, and respect you as a fellow (and certainly more knowledgable) Lib 5c collector. Frankly however, I couldn't care less if you don't like IKEs
Cheers
Greg
<< <i>I wonder how many are sitting out there in MS66+, toned, whatever in someone's Whitman or Dansco album or maybe even velor satchel, someday to be graded.
If there are Morgan and Gaudens hoards there are IKE hoards waiting to be discovered.
>>
I collected gem Washingtons from 1972 until 1977 before I discovered that Ikes even existed in gem
condition. I poked through rolls and mint sets and didn't even pay much attention to Ikes because I
believed that gems didn't exist! The only thing I found in lesser supply than gem Ikes were any collec-
tors who cared. Yes, there was a handful of people who collected Ikes but most cared little to seek
out a high grade. So very few people who cared very little about grade set aside any coins at all. The
bulk of the surviving mintages of Ikes have been sold to casual collectors over the intervening years.
How many gems are likely to have been included in these sets? How many would even survive if there
were some included?
The Morgan dollar was actively collected by many enthusiasts from the day they were released. Large
percentages of the mintage sat undisturbed in vaults for three quarters of a century.
No, there will be NO significant hordes of gem Ikes and quite possibly no large hordes of unc Ikes.
We may never get a chance to settle this bet but my money would be on that the general
public would think a PKOK Ike is "cooler" than a 1913 nickel and lots of other stuff.
-Khayse
No need to stop posting or worry about offending me. I asked for opinions. Yours is certainly well thought out and reflective of your tastes. We disagree on the issue of PKOKs but undoubtably agree about many other numismatic issues.
For the record, I think the average person, whether collector or not would find IKE PKOKs to be beautiful and interesting coins. I believe that would stop and take a look before they looked at some of the other pieces in the national collection.
Cheers
Greg
Just wondering, GrandAm
<< <i>So whatever happened to Supercoin?
Just wondering, GrandAm
Closed his business in 2003.
peacockcoins
<< <i>at that time, he was doing well playing online poker - I remember him posting (in the open forum I think) about just bringing down a $20K win from a tournament and was very excited, and was going to but coins on the back burner. >>
Alt alert!!
Naw, just kidding.
Welcome daveweson.
peacockcoins