Something Unusual

stman

See if you can figure out what happened. The dark area is only from my scanner. This could be very educational for some people. It's not a trick or a joke. If there are any or enough responses I'll explain later.
Something unusual

braddick

First or second generation NGC insert. This is back in the day (1987) when they did not have their logo in the background of the label.

stman

Okay, I'll give a hint....It does have something to do with the coin.

BNE

All I see is a label in the link.

stman

Bne, that's all there is supposed to be is the label. This is kind of a tough question to ask in a thread. And am sure there won't be many responses. But I know there are some very "astute" people here and somebody might take a good shot at what happened.

BNE

OK, I'll bite. My wild-aXXed guess is that it is a 1958-D that had a clog in the die, making it look like a 1959-D.

coinguy1

stman - you thought you had a newly discovered, unique 1959-S and that NGC listed the wrong mint mark on the grading label?

Strat

This is how it was explained to me, by a friend about a year ago, and he was told this by someone at the ANA's Summer Seminar. The older NGC slabs do not have a seam across the top third of their holders. If you notice their newer holders have a ridge of plastic that separates the label slot from the coin. The older labels have a tendency to fade over time, and if there is no seam to prevent reaction with the coin, some toning occurs. The label Stman is showing you is one I sent him, from a Franklin Half that I owned that was toned on both sides, an odd combination of orange and olive color. Unfortuanately, I sold the coin at a recent show, after having it reholdered. NGC was kind enough to return the old label to me, as I wanted it for comparative purposes. My understanding is that was never meant to be a white label with black printing, that the original color of the label included a brown border, very similar to what NGC uses today. I'm not sure if their 'scales' background was ever on that label or not (have any examples, Braddick?).

I have noticed other examples of coins in older NGC holders acquiring this type of toning, though it doesn't happen all the time. If I run across any other examples, I'll be sure to post them.

stman

Thanks Strat, Too bad you don't have a pic of the coin that toned from this label. Now I could put a twist on this one....Is it an original toned coin, Natural toned, a coin with help. I say this as everybody has their own feelings on the subject,

I know the coin toned from paper so some would feel that's natural.
Others might say it is enhanced toning. Myself I would just say it toned with a little help. So is there a difference in this as opposed what some might call AT that has had some help? Who knows it can go on forever which is real or not. Just my 2 cents

Edited to add: Some might feel this kind of toning that happened is ok and not "helped" because it happened in a holder so that's ok.
But is there any difference to having help in a holder or if someone gives the "help" themselves.

Strat

<< <i> Thanks Strat, Too bad you don't have a pic of the coin that toned from this label. >>



Yeah, I know, I should've kept it for educational purposes. Remember what I told you what happens whenever I bring nice toned coins to a show?

braddick

I have three examples. One is the Black holder, two are white- all three have NO Logo on the insert and with the gold hot stamp (silver for the black one) on the reverse (obverse, for the black one).

Strat

Pat, do you have scans? Not just for this thread, but I haven't seen the black first gen holder yet. I'll be checking my coins for other examples, but haven't had time yet.

Conder101

Sorry Strat but Braddick is right , on the first two varieties of NGC slabs the labels never had the border or scales underprinting. The seperation groove in the insert that kept the label away from the coin did not appear on the NGC slabs until the sixth variety of NGC slab which did not appear until 1997. (There are a lot of third, fourth, and fifth generation NGC slabs that do have the border and scales underprint without the groove still out there.) I have had my identification of the various varieties confirmed by NGC, they agree that the first two were just plain white labels. It's too bad you had your coin reholderd, second generation NGC slabs are very scarce to rare. My guess is they were only produced for no more than two weeks. Just long enough to get new labels printed with the border and underprinting. (The NGC 2 label were the same as had been used on the NGC 1 black slab, but the label just disappeared on the white insert so they immediately had new labels printed. The NGC 2 variety only lasted untill the new labels were ready.)

Strat

<< <i> Sorry Strat but Braddick is right >>



That's cool, I'm willing to learn, and would still like to see a pic of a black ngc slab if you have one. Thanks for contributing Conder, I'm more interested in the toning, and will continue to look for other, more pertinent examples (from ngc incarnations 3,4,5).

coppercoins

Toning is toning - all of it happens for one reason or another. Dansco albums tone coins - are these AT? Nope...not in my opinion. Most are ugly, but that's beside the point. The point is that AT is something baked-on, chemically added, etc. that takes little time, thus does not "penetrate" the coin...the slab toning, album toning, etc. are usually deep enough that a simple swab of acetone will not change the color...as it would with AT - "smoke" toning, "flame" toning or other methods of damaging a coin to create pretty colors.

In actuality, most "natural" toning happens because of a long term (10 years or more usually) exposure to something in the coin's environment that migrates to the surface of the coin and eats its way into the coin. Paper roll wrappers are an excellent example. Albums are another (one reason why I would never stick a coin in a Dansco). I personally think 90% of all toning is plain ugly, and most of the other 10% is "acceptable"....less than 2% are what I would consider truly "desirable".

Conder101

I only have one picture of a black NGC on this computer and it is of a toned barber dime. On my other machine I also have picture of two very lightly toned dollars in black slabs. If I get a chance I will post them later. Here is the dime. They are labeled backwards NGC1o is the back of the slab and NGC1r is the front.

Strat

Thanks Conder!