1876 II/II T$ proof vs. MS

shirohniichan

The 1875 I/I T$ and 1876 II/II T$ are two coins in the series worth far less in proof than in MS. So how does one keep from getting burned when buying a circulated example that may turn out to be an impaired proof? If some of the details are worn off, how can we be sure which is which?

The 1876 II/II almost always comes prooflike. What should I look for on a circulated '76 II/II so I can be sure it was a business strike and not a circulated proof? A certain die scratch? Different serifs?

BTW, keoj just PM'd me that the proof has a mark on Liberty's neck, but he's not sure if MS coins do, too. Does anyone know about how many dies were used on the MS coins? So far I've assumed only one obverse and reverse since so few appear to have been struck.

lathmach

I haven't much to offer on this series for diagnostics. Let us know what you come up with so I can make notes.

Ray

Darkhorse

The answer to your question is to avoid collecting US coins, Shiroh.

EVillageProwler

My response from across the street:

Tough question, Shiroh.

Since you're asking about circulated specimens, I'd have to recommend that you simply look in the protected areas. On the obv, look at the small field areas between the numerals of the date. On the rev, look in the areas between the wings and the branches and arrows.

Those areas would retain their proof surfacing the longest, and would be difficult to fully polish if the dies were for regular strikes.

Also, look at the rim. If the rim is still generally square, that's another telltale sign. Circulated proofs don't get rounded rims; they just get them banged up.

EVP

shirohniichan

To illustrate what I mean about '76 II/II's being prooflike, here's a scan of the MS-61 (raw) from last fall's B&M auction.

shirohniichan

Here's the obverse of a circulated and polished '76 II/II.

shirohniichan

Here is my circulated and cleaned '76 II/II.



The strike doesn't look so strong, so I didn't think it was a proof.

The polished one above this doesn't show much detail, but that could be because of an overzealous cleaning or whizzing.

The B&M specimen seems to have the best strike.

Does anyone have a '76 II/II proof to show for comparison?

shirohniichan

Here's the reverse.

jom

C'mon Shiro! Who cares? The ONLY important thing is whether the coin will crossover to PCGS. lol

jom

shirohniichan

I expected such an answer from a noted slabophile.

keoj

Shiro:

The diagnostics for the 76 II/II are no yet defined. Like I mentioned, I have examples of both and will let you know if I can see any differences between the two. One attribute was the pimple on the next (I think I can see it on the picture of your coin) but I'm note sure if its a MS or PR or Both diagnostic yet. One thing is absolutely true....the MS 76 II/II that I consider MS are clearly MS. They have no PL attributes on them. Here's my guess.....some of the attributed MS 76 II/II's may be impaired Proofs.

keoj

shirohniichan

Here's my guess.....some of the attributed MS 76 II/II's may be impaired Proofs.

That's what I figured. That could really screw up the estimated number of MS survivors. I heard the figure was between 25 and 50, but what happens if the 50% of the ones we track turn out to be impaired proofs? We can't necessarily adjust the number by cutting it in half since we have no way of knowing about the survivors we can't locate.

If many of the supposed MS coins turn out to be impaired proofs, that may also indicate leftover proofs were released into circulation by the Mint (even if there are no records of such).

lathmach

Shiroh:
Your ANACS AU Trade Dollar does not look like it was struck from the same obverse die as was the Prooflike one from the B&M auction.
When you look at coins to tell varieties, look at the date first as it was punched into the die by hand, and can be used many times to differentiate the dies used.
The date location up and down in relation to the dentils and the base, and left and right in relation to IGWT and/or dentils.
If you take a straight edge and place it alongside the right side of the stand of the one and align it with the dentils, it seems to be between two dentils on your's, and thru a dentil on the B&M one.
(This of course doesn't mean that it's a proof.)
If you can locate a proof and determine the date position, this could be used as one diagnostic, though.

Ray

Edited: Please keep us posted so I can make notes when you have something definate.

shirohniichan

I really doubt more than one obverse die was made for the business strikes since so few were produced. I know one collector who's trying to buy or get photos of every proof and MS '76 II/II so he can compare them all. Should anyone be able to prove that more than one obverse die was used for the MS coins, I'd be amazed. Maybe that would explain why most MS coins are prooflike (e.g. almost all struck from little-used dies).

EVillageProwler

Shiroh,

In those days, a die intended for PF strikings may also have been used for MS strikings when they feel its appropriate.

EVP

shirohniichan

Did some get die scratches in the meantime and become "pissing Liberty" varieties? Maybe that's what inspired potty dollars!