Why NGC kicks PCGS' butt

ANACONDA

Ok, I'll admit up front - this was a bait and switch.

The title should be "Why NGC is going to surpass PCGS (if David Hall steps away from the plate)."

Two simple facts. FACTS.

NGC allows PCGS coins into it's registry.

PCGSs coin boxes don't really accommodate any coins other than PCGS coins, especially NGC coins

In my opinion, this is the manifestation of a strategy that is not a good one.

These are just two things, but tips of what I believe are the underlying iceberg of an attitude on the part of PCGS that puts PCGS before collectors.

JUST MY THOUGHTS.

adrian

MAULUMALL

AND coffee cups.........................

braddick

<< <i>AND coffee cups......................... >>


...filled with Koolaid.

leothelyon

Sounds like another Microsoft monopoly.

Leo

baccaruda

i don't know, it worked for microsoft. and it's still working.

braddick

A "BigMac" will fit in the "Whooper" wrapper, but a Whooper will not fit in one of those BigMac cartons.

Interesting. . .

MacCoin

I have been thinking about this with all the pcgs - ngc stuff lately. I think that being first with the messager board and the registry sets have put PCGS up front in the market. Now ngc has a message board and reg sets they are closing in quick. PCGS needs to come up with another one of these great marketing tools and soon. Was Rick the one who came up with the idea for the mess board and reg sets. if so will he come up with something to make ngc #1 or will pcgs get there fingers out and come out with another super something to keep me buying PCGS coins?

tradedollarnut

Adrian: You forgot "problem coin" slabbing.

Pepsi and Coke. Haven't seen either one doing any butt kicking to each other lately - they just divvy up the market share and leave the crumbs to the second tier.

toothpuller

From what I can see NGC is basically a copycat company following in the footprints of PCGS with their forum and registry. There is nothing inherently wrong with this strategy. Following anothers successful business plan has often been a fruitful endeavor and frequently the innovator has fallen aside as the second company became dominant.

As to whether NCG is closing the gap on PCGS with their registry, I don't see this. I checked a commonly collected classic series where I have a budding set ranked in the midteens at PCGS. If I registered it at NGC it would be third behind two other tweaked PCGS sets. This is not to say the NGC registry will not do well. They are just a long way back at this point.

One thing I do give NGC credit for is their weighting system. It seems superior to that of PCGS as it gives each coin in a series some value while IMHO the PCGS system weighs the keys much too heavily [ie a couple of low grade keys can be worth more than 10- 15 very high grade commons].

Twowood

Competition...Ain't it wonderful? Who will eventually buy out whom?Twowood

Trime

Yawn!

Sorry but I couldn't resist.

supercoin

If PCGS doesn't attribute the 1972 Ike types soon, NGC will swallow them up, fire David Hall, and all the PCGS slabs in existence will spontaneously combust. Don't say I didn't warn you.

jom

I hate Pepsi.

jom

ANACONDA

The problem(s) are not the specifics I mentioned, i.e., PCGS boxes or their not allowing NGC coins into their registry.

What I think the problem is, is AN ATTITUDE (manifested by those two things). A misdirected focus. If the focus is on the collector, the dealer, the consumer, then in the long run, shareholder wealth will be maximized. Maximization of shareholder wealth is the classic goal of business.

(Coming up with an argument supporting PCGS' stance on not allowing NGC coins into their PCGS registry, is no challenge whatsoever, even a dolt could articulate that.......but if I were PCGS, I'd have three registries.....one just for PCGS coins, one for both PCGS and NGC coins and one for just NGC coins. Think about it. Imagine how NGC would feel if PCGS started a registry for just NGC coins........)

Other "little" things count too like

consistency in grading, (should be completely blind and not consensus grading for reasons I have articulated)

proving (instead of just saying) with studys done by disinterested third parties that you're fair with regard to how you treat customers with regard to potential biases connected to 1) cross-overs 2) the grade assigned based upon who sends in the coin and how much they pay to have it graded and

customer service.

The deal is, when you are #1, the hardest thing to do is to not sit back on your laurels, enjoying the fruits of your labor. I know, I've been in business for 12 years and it's easy to just coast....and get totally passed up.

So what's in it for me? A better environment for those who love coins and hence more economic activity resulting in......you guessed it....

adrian, B.B.A., M.B.A., J.D.

agentjim007

It doesn't matter how well NGC does in the future there is too many overgraded coins for NGC to ever clean up. Pcgs is not perfect and that sight unseen concept is long gone. As long as PCGS doesn't cave to collectors request to loosen up they will stay on top.Of course this is a two edged sword and will probably force more collectors/Dealers to submit to NGC to get the grade they want. PCgs is a business and they need submissions. Here's a future prediction, PCGS stays strict NGC gives you what you want so enough submissions go to NGC to put PCGS out of business (at least the current PCGS they would probably be bought by ACG graders and the high grades will fly). Now NGC is the number one just like you guys think they are. Old PCGS holdered coins get premiums like never before and with no one to keep NGC in check their grading falls apart and the whole house of cards come tumbling down.

agentjim007

Nearly 1/2 an hour and no one has told me I'm full of crap yet. I've put on my fire suit flame me baby.

DeepCoin

Adrian,

I would make one comment as to your recommendations to PCGS. Do you know how much IT support it would require to have 3 registries? Not to mention the development work. There is a very real cost to this and given the thin margins these small companies are working on, I am surprised they can provide the support they do.

What I would rather see them do is provide a quality research site (pay) that would give collectors the opportunity to see recent transactions on eBay, Teletrade, Superior auctions, B&M auctions... etc. This would be a real value add that I believe many would actually pay for.

Or you might incorporate it into some Collector's Club level for that additional fee.

I do not believe there would be additional submissions generated by additional registries. Again, strategically, I believe PCGS should take a hard look at their crossover procedures and internal policies. Without lowering standards, I do believe there should be a higher crossover rate in many series, but not all.

prooflike

I don't like the NGC message or registry software, in my opinion their software is second tier. I like PCGS' software much better.

prooflike

Oh yeah, I like the NGC boxes over the PCGS boxes as they hold multi-format slabs and they are see-thru.

NGC does have the best box on the market IMO.

prooflike

Agentjim, I can see the headlines now, NGC acquires ACG!

That'll loosen their grading. If NGC loosens to generate sales, it will be noted by the collecting community and they will end up down with ICG, et.al. and PCGS will be #1.

wallstreetman

PCGS doesnt rely on collectors coming to them, if submissions are down, they start slabbing and marketing their own creations! PCGS makes themselves not only a service provider, but a manufacturer! As long as they dont give you the grades you want and continue to give you the grades you deserve, they will always be on top! Why is PCGS #1? SMART!

MacCoin

agentjim you seem to be very knowledgeable on both NGC and PCGS. the only thing I can think to flame you on is that stupid Icon. people are going to think you might be a little lite in the loafers

ANACONDA

Jim, you're full of crap. Sorry for the delay in that promulgation. I was parachuting off the Eifle Tower, got caught by the police and had to break out and fly from Paris back to Dallas, ergo my slow response. My response is in capital letters and they follow your comments, which have been re-typed by yours truly, without a single mistake, in front of my responses. Guh head, find one mistaek.

It doesn't matter how well NGC does in the future there is too many overgraded coins for NGC to ever clean up. (ASSUMING YOUR CORRECT IN STATING THAT NGC NEEDS TO CLEAN UP, ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS COME OUT WITH A NEW HOLDER AND THEN EVERYONE CAN JUST REFER TO THE OLD LIBERALLY GRADED NGC COINS IN THE WHITE HOLDERS AND THE NEW BLOOD RED NGC HOLDERS WITH THE JASON LOGO ON IT.)

Pcgs is not perfect and that sight unseen concept is long gone. (TRUE AND UNTRUE. FROM WHAT I KNOW, THERE ARE STILL BIDDERS MAKING SIGHT UNSEEN BIDS ON COINS.)

As long as PCGS doesn't cave to collectors request to loosen up they will stay on top. (DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEFINE "ON TOP". IF YOU MEAN THEY WILL HAVE THE MOST SUBMISSIONS, I THINK THEY HAVE ALREADY LOST THAT PLACE. IF YOU MEAN PCGS COINS SELL FOR PREMIUMS OVER NGC COINS, THAT IS ONLY TRUE IF THERE ARE SIGHT UNSEEN BIDDERS WHICH YOU HAVE SAID IS "LONG GONE" - NOWADAYS COINS STAND ON THEIR OWN SO LONG AS THEY'RE IN NGC OR PCGS HOLDERS, OFTEN WITH PCGS COINS GOING BEGGING BECAUSE THEY ARE MISHOLDERED; 63S IN 58 HOLDERS PRICED AS 63S, 64S IN 63 HOLDERS, PRICED AS 64S, ETC.)

Of course this is a two edged sword and will probably force more collectors/Dealers to submit to NGC to get the grade they want. [BUYERS AND SELLERS OF COINS WANT THE COINS TO BE ACCURATELY GRADED, NOT OVERGRADED LIKE ACG, NOT UNDERGRADED LIKE PCGS COINS. THAT'S WHY MORE PEOPLE SEND THEIR COINS TO NGC (OR AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT I HEAR IS HAPPENING - I DON'T SEND COINS IN TYPICALLY.) IF LOOSE STANDARDS ARE WHAT HERDS COINS TO GRADERS, THEN YOU WOULD SEE MORE ACG COINS THAN ANYTHING ELSE.)]

PCgs is a business and they need submissions. (TRUE......)

Here's a future prediction, PCGS stays strict NGC gives you what you want so enough submissions go to NGC to put PCGS out of business (at least the current PCGS they would probably be bought by ACG graders and the high grades will fly). (PCGS PROBABLY WON'T GO OUT OF BUSINESS.)


Now NGC is the number one just like you guys think they are. ("YOU GUYS....." NOT EVERYONE THINKS NGC IS NUMBER ONE, WHAT EVER THAT IS...)

Old PCGS holdered coins get premiums like never before (MANY BUT NOT ALL OF THEM DO)

and with no one to keep NGC in check their grading falls apart and the whole house of cards come tumbling down. (THE SKY ISN'T FALLING. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE HUMAN CREATIVITY AND INSIGHT. BESIDES, WHERE THERE IS DISCORD AND KAOS, THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES.)

ANAconda.......man, I'm glad I can now stop shouting.

(PS. I have not been to Paris, France this year. Paris, Texas, yes. France, no. Also, I have used the copy and past functions, I have done no re-typing. Just fishing for lunkers.)

TRADERBOBZ

NOW we are cooking with gas

jcping

> PCGSs coin boxes don't really accommodate any coins other than PCGS coins, especially NGC coins

I don't care since I only use NGC coin boxes. Never mind the PCGS coin boxes.

agentjim007

Anaconda why do you always make me read so much?
BUYERS AND SELLERS OF COINS WANT THE COINS TO BE ACCURATELY GRADED, NOT OVERGRADED LIKE ACG, NOT UNDERGRADED LIKE PCGS COINS
This is all i want to respond to my brain can't take much more. You say PCGS is undergraded I say they're accurately graded, you want standards lowered to NGC standards...OK i'm going back to Bonaza now.......save me some fiddy octagons Little Joe.

Ronyahski

<< <i>

Other "little" things count too like

consistency in grading, (should be completely blind and not consensus grading for reasons I have articulated)

>>



Anaconda - Sorry I missed your prior articulative posts and am curious, what is completely blind grading? I trust that is is not a pugnacious concept of PCGS graders' abilities.

agentjim007

What good is consistancy if your consistanly off.

keithdagen

What good is consistancy if your consistanly off.

The perfect argument for NOT having your coins graded by PCGS. Greysheet says a MS-65 Morgan (industry pricing standard) is $100, and a PCGS MS-65 trades for $125, they are not grading to the INDUSTRY standards for grading.

agentjim007

The latest arguement has been the grey sheet is too low.

keithdagen

Attempt to tell that to the dealer you're trying to sell your coins to.

oreville

Now, now did I really buy this PCGS walker on ebay sight seen or sight unseen??????

1946-D walker in PCGS MS-65

EVillageProwler

Nice looking Walker. Looks like it has a nice strike too (which one should expect from that date/mint). I didn't realize that its4real's auction material is so nice!

EVP

oreville

Sorry off the subject.......

EVP: If you liked the last one look at this soft struck beauty by the same seller:

1942 walker in PCGS MS-63

EVillageProwler

A blast white softly struck in ChMS doesn't get my juices flowing. It's nice, but for my tastes. I like my Walkers to be well struck. I have a full set; the early pieces are the ones that are poorly struck.

EVP

DHeath

Consistency, I like the concept. Execution has been a little suspect at both companies IMO. Perhaps consistency is a little too much to wish for. If consistency really existed, no holdered coin would ever upgrade or downgrade. Do the services apply their grading standards? Loosely. Have any of you ever seen a PR69 holdered coin with a visible flaw? Raise your hand. If your answer is no, you haven't looked at many PR69s, yet there it is clearly in print in the PCGS guide, "no flaws visible to the naked eye". Ok, I paraphrased a bit, but that's close to the verbage. How hard can that one be to get right? If any of us believed we could truly accept the holder grade sight-unseen, and the guarantee would protect us, would we expect a return privledge from the seller? Do the services grade different year coins in the same series to different standards? Are early proofs graded like modern proofs? Why are 150 year old coins ever BB'd for cleaning? If 10% are original, 80% are cleaned and net graded, why not the other 20%. Is the cam/dcam standard consistent? Is there any consistency among services? Puleeze! Grading isn't and doesn't have to be consistent, it just has to be credible. We are buying credibility. As sellers, it helps make our coins marketable, and as buyers, it confirms the validity of our purchase decision. Heck, it wouldn't matter if we bought washers, if a respected company said ours was far above average, and supported our decision with a price guide, we'd feel very smug in the sure knowledge we were smarter than those who didn't have one as nice as ours. Now I love moderns, and some are extremely difficult in high grade, but the only reason common moderns are as expensive as they are is because of the grading services. Without the credibility the services provide (don't they validate your collection decision), why would a proof 70 dcam coin from the 90s be worth $400, when 1 collector in 500 can see a difference between it and a pr69, and that 1 needs magnification (a real pr69, not one of the crappy problematic ones that I see on occasion). I hope the 70s become more common. Absence of them creates false rarity. Classic guys, how much is the credibility you buy worth to you? Heck, take an easy one. What is the difference in value of a 1893-S Morgan in MS63 raw or holdered. That's one hell of a lot of credibility for $100. How insane it is that we give power to any company to transform a raw $1000 coin into a $10,000 coin, and then decide later to upgrade the same coin and make it worth $100,000, or downgrade it from $100,000 to $10,000. If you think the modern guys are at risk of buying foolishness, ponder that example for a minute. How can we do that, if we know the services have the perogative to simply change their mind about the grade if the coin is resubmitted?

Wait - I'm sorry, for a moment there I was caught up in my cynicism. I just looked at my raw coins, and I feel renewed. The services aren't bad, in fact they are a vast improvement over the fraudulent landscape that existed before their arrival. I don't mean this sound like a rant aimed at PCGS. No other service is much different. Sometimes though, I think we get a little caught up in the game and become distracted, forgetting what is important. How does knowing the services are inconsistent change your collecting strategies. If the best graders for hire in the business can't be consistent, then what's the point of professional grading? If PCGS/NGC need to get one thing right, that's the one thing. For either service to survive and remain relevant, that is the only issue that is critical. It is the basis of their credibility, and credibility is the reason we buy their service. IMO