With all the talk of rainbow peace dollars, take a look at this ugly one:) Edited with a boring stor
stman
Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is in a NGC ms63* holder. What do you think?
Hi folks I wanted to address a few things here. I'm not good at well thought out posts so I'll just be straight up. Many people have asked me about this transaction and to be honest I don't have the time to respond via PM and explain what's on my mind. Some are upset the way this transaction went down. And I understand why. I only posted this image for the love of coins nothing else to it. I even out of courtesy to the seller asked if this would be a problem because I saw one coming.
Well, the long and short of it I saw a coin I wanted and went after it. I saw on the auction page that offers were accepted so I made a call. Did I make a strong offer?...you better believe it. Or I would not have the coin in my hands right now.
Maybe I offered more than it would have closed at maybe not. If it would have closed at less and the person that won, if they buy and resell they would have gotten the price anyway. But that's not what this was about. Yes, someone also said they were upset about this auction ending but in turn mentioned if they would have known that maybe
they would have made an offer.
Anyway I'm writing this not because I feel bad but some questions have been asked of me. For one let me say the coin arrived just as it was imaged. The only difference is it looks a little better, meaning in the image a couple of the colors look a little funny and in person a tad lighter, and more realistic.
Now do I think it's for real? I'm no expert and never claim to be. I do know when I see something that doesn't look right. There maybe be a couple things, but can't we always find something if we look hard enough. Or think we see something.
I've seen a lot of people on the board if they don't like a seller they might feel everything that comes from them is either crap or AT. I'm here about the coins not the politics. I always value input from some very experienced collectors on this board. And I'm not trying to plug the seller, as this was our first communication.
But I will say it arrived as described and as imaged.
Something else, as far as the grade and the NGC*. I don't place all my faith in a service and don't really need to see a * to tell me if a coin has great eye appeal or not. But I've noticed that they don't give the star out at random or very loosely. I've only seen maybe a little more than a handful in person but by checking their site and census they don't seem to be very loose on it. It had nothing to do with my decision to buy the coin. But I will say they not only slabbed this coin but gave it a little something extra. Now it still might not mean anything, but it's just a little more weight to put to it. I know their are some that feel it isn't real because they are starting to pop up lately. One board member in another thread said that due to prices they are coming from strong collectors hands, like the monster Morgan's. And those are still going crazy. Bottom line I guess unless we were in the vaults at the mint and hand picked one that might be the only way to know for sure if it's original
Hi folks I wanted to address a few things here. I'm not good at well thought out posts so I'll just be straight up. Many people have asked me about this transaction and to be honest I don't have the time to respond via PM and explain what's on my mind. Some are upset the way this transaction went down. And I understand why. I only posted this image for the love of coins nothing else to it. I even out of courtesy to the seller asked if this would be a problem because I saw one coming.
Well, the long and short of it I saw a coin I wanted and went after it. I saw on the auction page that offers were accepted so I made a call. Did I make a strong offer?...you better believe it. Or I would not have the coin in my hands right now.
Maybe I offered more than it would have closed at maybe not. If it would have closed at less and the person that won, if they buy and resell they would have gotten the price anyway. But that's not what this was about. Yes, someone also said they were upset about this auction ending but in turn mentioned if they would have known that maybe
they would have made an offer.
Anyway I'm writing this not because I feel bad but some questions have been asked of me. For one let me say the coin arrived just as it was imaged. The only difference is it looks a little better, meaning in the image a couple of the colors look a little funny and in person a tad lighter, and more realistic.
Now do I think it's for real? I'm no expert and never claim to be. I do know when I see something that doesn't look right. There maybe be a couple things, but can't we always find something if we look hard enough. Or think we see something.
I've seen a lot of people on the board if they don't like a seller they might feel everything that comes from them is either crap or AT. I'm here about the coins not the politics. I always value input from some very experienced collectors on this board. And I'm not trying to plug the seller, as this was our first communication.
But I will say it arrived as described and as imaged.
Something else, as far as the grade and the NGC*. I don't place all my faith in a service and don't really need to see a * to tell me if a coin has great eye appeal or not. But I've noticed that they don't give the star out at random or very loosely. I've only seen maybe a little more than a handful in person but by checking their site and census they don't seem to be very loose on it. It had nothing to do with my decision to buy the coin. But I will say they not only slabbed this coin but gave it a little something extra. Now it still might not mean anything, but it's just a little more weight to put to it. I know their are some that feel it isn't real because they are starting to pop up lately. One board member in another thread said that due to prices they are coming from strong collectors hands, like the monster Morgan's. And those are still going crazy. Bottom line I guess unless we were in the vaults at the mint and hand picked one that might be the only way to know for sure if it's original
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
0
Comments
Bryan @ TBD really does have nice coins. Where in tarnation does he find these things!
Oh, ya - it is nice! Nice isn't the word!
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
TBT
Here's a cool gone one:
Honestly, if I didn't know you from these forums and met you personally, I'd skip all your auctions because of this.
Just curious, what did you get for the coin?
We do say offers accepted and that we end auction when coins sell. Look on the bright side, another board member bought it. Send us an offer when you like a coin.
You will need to ask the new owner for the price realized, as it is not our place to tell.
TBT
Your auction states: "Our coins are shown on the weekends at coin shows around the country. This auction may be ended early if the coin sells at a show. " I don't recall a weekend occurring on either Tuesday or Wednesday.
Of course there is this: "We reserve the right to cancel any bids and close an auction at anytime so please bid early or send us an offer." However, eBay rules state that you can end the auction at any time, so putting it in the auction is no big deal. However, that line about sending you offers likely violates eBay policy.
All in all, it is your coin and you can do with it what you like. I just won't make it a habit of patronizing dealers that do this.
If it is a no reserve eBay auction, I believe it is implied that bids are to take place on the eBay site. It is one thing to end the auction early if the bidding on that venue reached a level you are happy with. It is another thing to end the auction because you decided to take an offer offline. Just my opinion. It is something that I would not make a habit of doing.
Actually, I hadn't placed a bid on it yet. I wait until the last second to bid to prevent bidding wars. I was planning on placing a bid if the coin was at a level that I was still OK with. It is very possible that he sold the coin for MUCH more than I was willing to pay. At the same time, since I won't be bidding in the Heritage sale (thanks Heritage!) I probably would have placed a bid slightly higher than I normally would have for this coin. Maybe I was willing to pay more. We'll never know if it would have been higher.
agentjim007, make no mistake about it, I couldn't care less if eBay didn't get their fees for this or any other auction. Let them go out of business for all I care. They're a bunch of two-faced jerks!
However, if the seller was happy with a certain price, then they should put a reserve at the minimum and a Buy-It-Now at the price they are happy with selling it for. To me a no reserve auction is just that.
I still wish though, once a coin is offered on eBay and the Reserve IS MET, the coin shouldn't be pulled.
peacockcoins
No bids, fine, cancel it.
Just my opinion.
Dave
PS NICE PEACE DOLLARS, GUYS!
And illegal things you don't mind doing?
Dave
TBT
Congrats on acquiring that beautifully toned Peace Dollar. As most dollar collectors know, they're the toughest to find with nice color.
While glad you are now the new owner, I also understand the feelings of those that planned on buying the coin at auction. I've been on both sides of that equation, and believe me, one side is a lot better than the other. With that being said, I believe the following:
1) The coin is the property of the seller and at the end of the day, it's his to do with as he pleases.....despite how many of us feel about the early cancelation of auctions.
2) When you find a piece that sets itself apart from its peers, especially a monster coin, you'd better figure out a way to acquire it before someone else does.
GSAGUY
That is a really nice toned Peace dollar! You sure are building one heck of a toned arsenal!
Sorry, I got about half way through the story and my A.D.D. kicked in.
You assume much when you confuse ethics and honor with personal opinion. You have the right to choose how and whom you buy from.
You do not have the right to make baseless assumptions and accusations based solely on your personal feelings and opinions. I respect your personal opinion and agree to disagree with you. My personal feeling on your comments does not have a place in this public forum. This would also include comments made in PM’s to us and the buyer of the coin.
TBT
I will not buy from dealers who list coins for sale in an auction and then take them to a show and sell them and then cancel the auction. I have just wasted my time and research on the coin to determine a fair value to me. My time is just as valuable to me as any dealers is to them. If you don't agree so be it. But don't accuse me of personalizing this, I clearly did not. What we have is a different set of ethics.
The coin is the property of the seller but I think the seller has an obligation to the bidders when he puts a coin into auction with the hope of gaining the benefit of a bidding war among the potential buyers. That benefit should come at the cost of giving the bidders a legitimate opportunity to win the coin during the timeframe for the auction. If the seller wants to protect themself then let him set a reserve but I think it's unfair (and the rule that allows this is IMHO unfair) to waste the time of the bidders by offering a coin at auction, commencing a bidding war, stirring the hopes of the bidder that they have an equal chance to win the coin and then sell out from under them.
If the coin is for sale in a shop, the seller can remove it from his display any time he pleases and it's none of my business. If it's promoted as up for auction, it sends a completely different message to potential buyers. Maybe the seller decides he doesn't want to sell after all and stops the auction. Still no problem. BUT...if he offers it for sale at auction, it should be done to completion. That is what an auction is. By definition. If you're gonna sell it...sell. If you're gonna offer it for auction...auction it. It's not really all that complicated.
My post does state “others” very clearly in the first line. Shame?
We post most of our coins with BIN’s but as you know as soon as a bid is placed on a no reserve auction the BIN disappears. I guess we could set the reserve so the BIN stays up but that would upset the group that refuses to bid on reserve auctions. Again b/c of personal opinions a seller / dealer can’t win.
Remember that your feelings about the business practice of ending auctions for offers made is mirrored by the group of buyers that wants to make offers and buy the coin outright. Is either right ore wrong? It still comes down to personal opinions on ethics or honor……and I can accept that.
TBT
<< <i>"The coin is the property of the seller but I think the seller has an obligation to the bidders when he puts a coin into auction with the hope of gaining the benefit of a bidding war among the potential buyers. That benefit should come at the cost of giving the bidders a legitimate opportunity to win the coin during the timeframe for the auction... I think it's unfair (and the rule that allows this is IMHO unfair) to waste the time of the bidders by offering a coin at auction, commencing a bidding war, stirring the hopes of the bidder that they have an equal chance to win the coin and then sell out from under them. >>
beautifully put.
My time is as valuable as anyone elses so if I've taken the time to view an auction, make the decision to bid, follow the auction and possibly increase my bid in order to win a coin and the coin gets pulled in my view it is a problem.
I don't see the parallel with a coin is in the store window (getting ATed
A seller should think about their decision to sell a coin outright or by auction before the auction starts. Once the auction starts the benefit the seller hope to derive from the auction venue should be matched by an obligation to the bidders to live with the outcome of the auction. The seller has the option to protect himself with a reserve. I've got no problem with that. But I think to take advantage of the benefits of the auction format and have people offer bids and pull the coin without letting the auction process unfold is unfair to those who have taken the time to participate in the auction.
"Remember that your feelings about the business practice of ending auctions for offers made is mirrored by the group of buyers that wants to make offers and buy the coin outright."
Why should someone be allowed to go through the back door and bypass the efforts of those bidding on the coin throught the front door? Let them participate on the same level as the other bidders and let the person who wants the coin the most (reflected in their higher bid) prevail. If it's a reserve auction and it ends without meeting the reserve then let the back door offers be made.
Putting a coin in auction and entertaining side offers is a case of having your caking and eating it to.
You missed my point completely.
Bryan (TBT) and I have long disagreed on his practice of ending auctions early but we remain close friends. Again, I may not like his practice, but the coin is his and the resulting 'damage' he does by ending auctions early is his to deal with as he so chooses.
To me, the best way for a buyer to protect himself when he sees a coin he really wants featured on ebay, is to contact the owner and ask if he plans to let the auction run its course of if he's inclined to end it early if the right offer comes along. If the latter, then the potential buyer needs to decide if he wants to play the "make an offer" game.
Hope this makes my position more clear.
GSAGUY
Sellers like auctions because they may get the highest price for their product.
Buyers like auctions because they may get the lowest price for the product.
Sellers use reserves to ensure they don't sell too low.
Buyers use max bids to ensure they don't pay too much.
Sellers use buy it now and make an offer options to flush out buyer interest and to sell quickly.
Buyers use sniping and auction watch to hide interest from seller and other buyers and to delay buying as long as possible.
Sellers get burned by dead beat buyers who don't pay.
Buyers get burned by dead beat sellers who don't ship.
Clearly both buyer and seller are seeking an advantage in the transaction. I doubt any of us find that we always come out on the best (or worst) side of every transaction. Sometimes it may be a little too presumptuous to impute motives to others and judge them harshly when we are only dealing with the natural tensions that will always exist between buyers and sellers.
That said, the following poem may illuminate why we all continue to post here and offer strongly held positions.
The Stubborn Ounces of My Weight...author unknown
You say the little efforts that I make will do no good,
That they will never prevail
To tip the scale
Where life hangs in the balance...
Perhaps I never thought they would.
But I am constrained beyond debate
To chose which side
Shall feel the stubborn ounces of my weight.
What I'm really surprised at is nobody is coming down on me about all this. And for the record nobody has contacted me about the way I bought this coin. I chose to edit the thread because I do have some close contact with many members of the board and many had questions concerning the COIN and my feelings on it.
Like I said in my BORING story I decided to post here because it was easier than using the PM feature at the time and write what the COIN looked like, my feelings, etc. etc.
BTW, how do you like the COIN
Very Nice Coin! Anything negative in my post about the way the sale when down are not directed at you.
RLinn
I was with you until you got to this line. "Sellers use buy it now and make an offer options to flush out buyer interest and to sell quickly." The buy it now gives an interested party the option to pay a known price for an item before the bidding starts . Once the bidding starts we're back to a traditional auction. When an "option to make private offers" is posted the sales venue is no longer an auction in the traditional sense. If you want to sell quickly limit the timeframe for the auction. If we're having an auction let the buyer make the offer in the form of a bid giving the other interested parties a fair chance at matching the bid or bowing out of the competition.
As for sniping, those that participate understand that it's their last opportunity to win the coin and bid accordingly. Everyone has the same shot baring technical difficulties.
"Sellers get burned by dead beat buyers who don't pay. Buyers get burned by dead beat sellers who don't ship."
That can happen whether someone won the coin as the high bidder or through a back door offer.
Bottomline: If we're going to have an auction let's have an auction. The maybe I'll auction it or maybe I'll sell it outright method is in my mind unfair to the people that take the time to participate in the auction bidding against the other participates.
stman: this thread is still about the coin. you showed it to us, at least several of us were, to varying degrees, quite interested in it.
we were led to believe that the coin was up for auction and that at a certain time we would know if our final bid was going to get us this dang coin. we unfortunately never reached this point, because said dang coin was sold to you and the auction ended.
i have no problem with you or what you did, in fact i was very pleased that you had shared this coin with the forum. i know it was on my watch list, but don't remember if i had already seen it or i was led to it from this thread.
as i previously stated, i do hope that TBT got a good price for this because he may have gotten more in a bidding war, what with all of us watching this auction, but further, may have alienated people from taking any of his future auctions seriously. (after this whole thing was over i went back and read the entire spiel that went along with the auction and realized i had forgotten about the 10% "restocking fee" he charges. we've had numerous threads on these in the past, but they still rub me the wrong way.)
all in all it was an educational experience, as is most everything when approached the correct way. it's clearly impossible to say what the hammer price would have been, had the auction proceeded to it's (i believe) proper conclusion, and had we had a public auction it would have been even more educational, as we all would have known the price at which the coin changed hands.
but on a more personal level it's just reminded me that there are an awful lot of people selling nice coins, and if i don't like the way one conducts business i can always spend my money somewhere else.
<< <i>I was with you until you got to this line. "Sellers use buy it now and make an offer options to flush out buyer interest and to sell quickly." >>
pmh1nic, I really wasn't trying to approve or disapprove of sellers using the "make an offer" approach. I simply observe that their reason for doing so is self-serving as are most of our actions with regard to auction participation. Sniping would be just another example of a self-serving action.
In reality I tend to accept all of the issues raised in this thread as part and parcel of the auction environment much like S&H fees, return policies, etc. As you have pointed out, it is an imperfect (unfair) system at best, yet I find it to be equally imperfect from either the seller's or buyer's perspective. Thus, we are all left to decide how these imperfections will affect our engagement. Some will avoid certain sellers or buyers for what they consider valid reasons while others will not be so inclined based on the same set of reasons. So be it.
I think the coin stman posted is stunning and very much worthy of another look. And BTW, pmh1nic, I agree with your Bottom Line.
If a bidder such as myself sees something that TBT is offering and he wants to participate in this auction, and the bidder knows that TBT applies this "make offer on auctions" policy, do you think that the bidder will forego another auction offered by a different seller at the same time because he is "reserving" his money for TBT?? I think not.