Toned coins with Prooflike surfaces - do they get the classification?

FC57Coins

I've run into a few raw toned Morgans that I can tell they have prooflike surfaces by turning the coin sideways, however, their reflectivity would be hindered by toning. Do these coins get graded PL or DMPL even though they might not reflect in the same way a white prooflike might? - Wondered if some of you who might have these types of coins might shed some light on this.

Frank

IrishMike

Frank, rarely but once in awhile I have seen a PL designation on a heavily toned coin.

Dog97

You do not make the designation on prooflike surfaces by turning the coin sideways but rather by how many inches of reflectability it has. However to make the designation it has to reflect at the correct inches no matter how you turn it i.e. no dead spots.

RotatedRainbows

Yes they do grade them PL but the mirrors have to be all there to make it, if this piece was white it would easily make DMPL.

Dog97

RotatedRainbows that's a pretty Morgan you posted! I have a question for you concerning the PL vs DMPL qualities of it and maybe you can answer since you can see the coin in person;
Is it the tone or the die state which keeps your 82-O at PL? The rev looks fully DMPL but the obv looks to be a later die state which has lost the DMPL qualities i.e. it doesn't look as frosty on the obv and the mirrors probably aren't as deep even if it were white.
Thanks.

FC57Coins

As an attachment to Dog97's question to RR - I noticed that the reverse has a cloudy layer over it which, I've been told has been caused by the way these coins were stored over the years. Is this something that can be gotten rid of with dipping? Has anyone tried it?

Frank

Dog97

FC57Coins I'm not sure what causes the haze, probably something during the planchet or die prep but it doesn't dip off.

FC57Coins

Thanks for the info Dog97 - that's kinda what I had read. I have recently gotten the coin pictured below in a GSA holder. As you can see, it has that kind of filmy haze on it, so since I wanted to have the coin graded, I went ahead and sent it to NCS for processing with very specific directions as to what I wanted to have done. They contacted me a couple of times about my submission and they went ahead and processed it. It'll be interesting to see what they did and how it comes out. I'll post the results as soon as I get the coin back which should be in about a month or so.

Frank

PS - the coin is possibly PL or maybe even DPL, depending on how it comes out. Even with the haze, if you look at the coin, particularly at the reverse, you'll be able to see the faint reflection of the camera as I was taking the pic.

sinin1

FC57 - Frank what's the deal with NCS, when you get the coin back it will be raw correct?

Some coins I see are in NCS slabs details graded - are these submissions to NGC that got sent across the hall to NCS?

I have read one person say NCS declined to work on their coin because it would have brought a MS63 to MS64/65.

Do they crack out of slabs, or only raw submissions?

They charge on a percentage value of coin?

I'm curious when you get your submission back, whether you are happy with what you got.

For people dipping their own, is it possible to only dip the obverse or reverse if you like the tone on one side but would prefer the other to be blast white?

Dog97

FC57Coins if it is true haze which is a form of toning they can fix it.
In my case the "haze" was roughness in the fields and Jeweluster wouldn't fix it.

FC57Coins

Dog97: We'll have to see what the outcome is. As I looked at the coin, there seemed to be almost a "dust-like" material covering some parts of the coin, other parts looked just plain hazy. I don't know how the coin will ultimately come out, but I'll certainly report the results.

Sinin: There are various options available through NCS - you can get the coin raw sent to you, you can get them to authenticate it in their own slab, or you can have them send it to NGC for grading. I opted for the latter. They charge you a percentage fee on the coin which I calculated to be about $30 on this particular one. I'll have details of the entire transaction when I get the coin back. My coin was in a GSA slab and I sent it in the slab, they will crack coins which they feel they can improve.

Frank

Morganluver

Hi Frank. I have a heavily toned PL Morgan on auction right now that I think would probably be given full DMPL status without the toning. Seems like unless there is a sufficient white(untoned) or very lightly toned portion where the reflectivity is readily discernable, it will only be given a PL. Even with heavily toned coins you can usually see if the surfaces are PL because of the way the colors look and reflect. They have a different quality to them. Also, if you look at the fields with pretty strong magnification you will either see flow lines(particularly near the rims) indicating less proof likeness or little or no flow lines indicating PL or DMPL surfaces. Also, full DMPLs will have less and sometimes much less "cartwheel" effect because of the lack of these flow lines. This is just another way to discern the surface state when toned.

I also have a couple of coins in to NCS to remove the "haze" sometimes seen on these coins. It's been postulated that this haze is caused by the effects of extremes in temterature and humidity over time creating an alternately "sweaty" and dry surface condition that will(but not always) produce this condition. Unfortunately, this haze cannot always be removed.

Planchets were washed in a strong soap, borax, and water soultion and then rinsed in water and then steam-dried and annealed. They were then dipped in a weak sulfuric acid and water solotion and then rinsed again in boiling water. Lastly, the planchets were tumbled in a drum with sawdust. If at any time during this process(especially before annealing) the planchets were not properly rinsed, I believe these planchets had greater susceptibility toward "hazing" and that these planchets are most likely the ones that can't successfully be conserved. Luster could also be diminished because of this and possibly from improper polishing as well.

RotatedRainbows

This coin was very hard to scan because it does have such nice mirrors, the colors on the obverse are 100% better then they appear and the mirrors are about same depth as the reverse but the picture was taken trying to bring out the color more then the mirror depth. The blue covers about 1/4 and is strong pure blue with a little more purple then shows up in the picture, the reverse is 100% brilliant with no haze at all its just that the mirrors are so deep my scanner had a hard time with them.

pmh1nic

This is a heavily toned Morgan. It's in an old Hallmark slab with a PL designation.

RotatedRainbows

I also have a toned PL in an old Hallmark holder.

FC57Coins

WOW - awesome coins guys - I find that PL toned morgans are absolutely stunning - I'm also finding that if you're careful, you can still find some now and then which dealers don't pay much attention to because they don't have "RAINBOW" toning - just plain blues or reds, or combinations thereof - those are fine with me - I still find them very pleasing! Thanks for all the great info!

Regards,

Frank

Dog97

RotatedRainbows
So does that mean the 82-O does or does not have a frosty obv with cameo?

Gilbert

Frank, I had a toned morgan dollar I believed to be prooflike. I purchased it in an ICG slab (MS62). I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS where it was "bodybagged" without prejudice. I then sent it to Tom so he may take it to ANA money show in NY, but, the USPS was as timely as I had intended; nevertheless, Tom forwarded it to NCS for an eval and conservation as I had requested. It was conserved and slabbed as an NGC62PL. I felt it had the surfaces, and it happened to be one of my fave varieties, that's why I went through all the shenanigans, but here it is:


NCS convert

My scanner show reflectivity as darness, but I think you should be able to see the difference between the before and after. I do have a couple images I believe are better, but, what the hey. In person it is a significant difference, and I believe deserving of its new grade and designation. Oh, and it is the 1878 VAM 43, no extra tailfeather 7/8 tailfeathered double legged variety one can find in the Hot 50. Think I got it around $90, and put $30 into for PCGS (not included shipping) and another $50 or so for conservation and encapsulation, which puts it more or less a couple bucks over VAM retail, for now. The VAM43 seems to bounce around pricewise, based on desirability. I don't think I'll have too much trouble getting a fair price out of it should I ever replace it.

So, yes and no. If the toning isn't too heavy the coin may get the designation, and if it is obscured, it probably won't. But, alas, in this coin I've had it both ways.

FC57Coins

Gilbert:

Great post and great coin! When I sent my coin in to have it graded after conservation I also asked that they photo proof it. It should be interesting to see the pictures.

Regards,

Frank

RotatedRainbows

Dog, I went and looked at the coin (I had it home since I was selling it) and no I would say it does not have the cameo look that the reverse has after looking at it closely under strong light the cartwheel is a little stronger then the reverse has. I forgot that I have another PL piece it is an 1896 PCGS 62PL which now resides in a new holder with reverse side out. If you look in the right field under the eagles wing you will see a white spot, it is a piece of the hologram so I sent it to Rick last year and he reholdered it for free.

Dog97

Thanks for eyeballing it RotatedRainbows. I was comparing it with a similiar coin of mine, an 80-O MS60 DMPL, which has a nice rev but a non-lovely light gold, darker on periph obv. It looks to be a later obv die state because it's not very frosty and the mirrors really suck or either the tone and scuffs ruined it. The color don't look as bad as my pict shows but I wonder how it got in a DMPL slab. I keep it because it's a good example of a bad example is all I can say.

Gilbert

Dog97,

Is that a little "tic" at feather number 1, or is that a VAM1a hangnail?

Dog97

I checked it out. It's just tick on the slab, Gilbert.