Value of Ingot gold faceplates from Central America Recovery?

northcoin

Does the greysheet even list a value for the faceplates that are being sold from the ingots that were used to make the $50 Territorial Replica coins? Anyone here have any experience with what thesen face plates have/would bring at auction?

boston

I'll step forward and say that any type of replica is not welcomed! There are certain pieces that
are collectable, but I can't think of any specifically. Some conterfeits are more collectable.
Stick with the real thing. It's a better investment.

Outhaul

The Kellogg restrikes go for big dough

Mark

Boston:

You misunderstand about the face plates. Apparently there were too many ingots recovered from the Central America in the sense that they could not be sold at prices that Dwight Manning, et. al., thought reasonable. Now, each ingot has a "face" that gives detials about the ingot--who manufactured it, the weright, the fineness, etc. So Manning "shaved" the face from some of the ingots, thereby preserving the details on the face. The face was then sold to collectors and it is this that northcoin was asking about. The rest of the ingot was melted and made into replica $50 coins, each coin with a date on it from the Central America's voyage. Some dates had more coins made than other dates. It is these replicas that you are talking about.

That said, northcoin and you have an interesting point: I don't recall seeing either a face plate or a replica sell on the open market, so I, too, wonder what their price might be...and how that price compares with the Manning, et. al., original asking price.

Mark

boston

Mark,
Thank You for the insight. I was and am very apprehensive about the long term value of
replicas and items associated with them. I know that I don't know JACK SH*T about them.
I got a tee-shirt with Jack's family history though!
Boston Bob

Mark

Boston:

I agree 100% with your assessment about the replica's long-term value. I know that some colonial replicas struck circa the 1850s are now collectable and go for decent prices, but I think the $50 gold replicas are different. In particular, to strike them actual historical ingots had to be destroyed. Even though I believe that in general an owner should be able to do with his or her property whatever he or she desires, I thought that destroying these 150 year old original ingots was a true shame.

Mark

northcoin

And does anyone know what the faceplates were/are being offered for either in the first instance or on the secondary market?

boston

Northcoin.

I apololgize for the diversion. What year/strike are you refering to? I will gladly assist in research,
as it does interest me now. I can't afford any more coins right now and need a diversion.
Am I sounding redundant? I could use a diversionary mission.
Boston Bob

boiler78

I find it interesting that the ingots were initially marketed as "unique priceless" pieces of American history. When the ingots didn't sell fast enough they came up with the restrike scheme and justified their actions by shaving the face plates. Funny how the ingots were not nearly as priceless after they came up with a more efficient use for the bullion they contained. Where can I buy my Central America face plate? I can't wait.

michael

1.3x to 2x melt

sincerely michael

northcoin

Michael, do you know where one can find the faceplates at a mere 2 x melt. Assuming a 10 oz faceplate that would equate to about $6,000. Have you seen any go for that cheap? If I recall correctly the ingots themselves (at least the small ones) were impossible to get at auction for less than $20,000 and the smallest ones Bowers and Merena were promoting seemed to have been offere3d for over $30,000 I could be wrong, but I don't think those small ingots were much more than 10 ounces. Of course that was many months ago and I have no idea what the present market is for the Central America intact gold ingots, much less the face plates I am asking about. Any clues or ideas?

northcoin

Boston -thanks for offering to research this. I guess the place to start would be with the original sellers/promoters of the Central America treasureship recovery. Bowers and Merena, Blanchard, David Hall? Some of the ingots have been included in auctions within the last year. The face plates, however, remain something of an enigma. How many of them are there out there? How many have actually been sold and at what prices? Are they all quite similar in weight and dimensions? And getting back to my original question, are they recognized as being genuinely numismatic items worthy of being tracked in the price guides (such as the greysheet) or are they doomed to be relegated as orphan collectibles? As to value, at what price point does supply meet demand? Will this remain constant or is this "market" being manipulated in the same way the diamond market is by a cartel closely limiting supply? My guess is that if we were only talking about uncut ingots from the Central America ship recovery that those have proven to be a solid investment value so far, i.e., the price appears to have gone up since they were first issued. Assuming that this guess is correct, would it be fair to assume that the face plates (which in actuality are partial ingots) would also increase in value OR are they so overpriced to begin with that reason and experience would dictate otherwise? Anyway, whatever you learn from your research let us know as these do appear to be somewhat uncharted waters.

boiler78

northcoin- Dave Bowers announced from the podium at the Baltimore auction, that all of the Central America coins and ingots have finally been sold. Seems like it took quite a while for the market to absorb all that material. The double eagles seem to be reselling at 20-30 % off their original prices but I don't know about the ingots. I have never seen the face plates offered.

northcoin

Found an internet site (sscentralamerica.com) that tells a little about the making of the faceplates as well as some references in David Bower's newest tome (10 pounds or more!) on the gold rush to the faceplates. Sounds like 60 to 70 or the some 300 plus gold bars were used and generally the ones sliced were in the 200 to 300 ounce size. Assuming there are less than 70 of these faceplates available does that provide any clues as to their current and future market value?

DesertLizard

SS Cent. Amer. Link

Can't wait to buy these to put next to my Isle of Man mint set , Jersey Guersey Proof Golds and South Africa super duper Platinum Proof Official Jubilee 18 piece set!

michael

hi there northcoin from my experience in the coin game the figure i gave out was my guesstimate of value based on your question

since i do not collect such things i cant help you further

good luck and let me know if you come up with anything it would be interesting to hear about

sincerely michael

michael

i also wish they would promote the deep cameo coinage of the 19 to early 20 century century like they did this ss central america treasure

then the coins would be worth ten times what they are now! but i guess it would be hard to do as these deep ultra cameo coins are many times rarer than all the central america stuff!!

sincerely michael

northcoin

Michael - thanks for the response. With regard to the deep cameo coins are you referring to more than gold? I am presently awaiting receipt of a proof cameo standing liberty quarter that as a cameo is probably a pop one for its year and grade. As you suggest, it was affordably priced. Gold cameo proofs from the years prior to 1930 however generally seem to be highly priced, at least when they grade at proof 64 or better. Is your experience otherwise?

michael

hi there north coin! for me in terms of deep cameo proofs i am mostly refering to the silver copper and nickel coinage

with gold proofs pre 1933 they are moon money even if not in deep cameo/cameo and are quite common for deep cameo coins just because of the metal used! but not inexpensie and with all the expert lasering/ artificial frosting ........ well that is another thread.......lol

but

i was wondering about that cameo proof standing liberty quarter?
maybe you mean it is a seated/barber/washington coin/? mazybe just a typo on your part

i myself do it all the time! pleaase keep in touch
and let me know waht coin you get back from the services as a cameo proof quarter i bet it is a cameo washington from the 36 to 42 era???/

i am really interested as proof cameo coinage pre 1950 is an interest and study of mine

sincerely michael

northcoin

Typo it was. Should have stated, "seated liberty", not standing. Actually it has already been graded (I believe an MS 67 PCGS), but have yet to receive it from the seller.

boston

Northcoin,

I have a couple specific inquiries to make yet. I did find out that there were 69 of the Kellogg & Humbert ingots used as the source material for the restrikes.
Bob Evans, the Curator of the treasure of the S.S. Central American did not have any information on the prices. He did say that they were issued as framed pieces with
pertinent information.

Keep you posted.

Bob

northcoin

Thanks Boston. Look forward to hearing more.

michael

i wpould like to see the proof 67 cameo seated quartter when you get it from the dealer maybe a scan for me? and also the date a really nice coin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


now the deep cameo coins those are ultra rare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

Outhaul

One thing that upset me over this entire S.S. CA thing is that the common, ordinary, everyday collector, who wanted nothing but a tangible piece of history, was shut out of the deal right from the start. I, personally, have collected everything from the S.S. CA with the exception of an actual part of the find. Everything about it was priced way out of many collectors range. About the most affordable thing you can get are those PCGS slabs with .5gm of gold or a "pinch" of gold for around $300.00. So far I've managed:

Christie's Auction catalogs both hard & soft cover
Thompson's book in hardback
Kinder's book in bot hard & soft
Bower's book

I know what you're all thinking..."Quit whining...what did you expect?"

What I expected was that the less marketable items to have been made affordable for those of us who are serious about the history. I certainly didn't expect to get an 1857 Double (or any other coin for that matter) for short money. I mean, in the name of corporate greed they destroyed a signifigant amount of the find. Shaving ingots, etc. What a waste.

Oh well...thanks for the forum to vent.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled banter

Cheers,

Bob

boston

Northcoin,

If you're comfortable with it, enable your PM option in "profile".

Bob

prooflike

This faceplate bit sounds sort of silly to me...

northcoin

Boston - I believe the PM is now activated.

northcoin

Any updates?

boston

Northcoin,

I apologize for not pursuing this more. Didn't get replies to a couple e-mails and have been involved in
some serious personal matters that require all my attention.
Boston Bob

boston

PM sent.

Mark

boston:

If you don't mind, I would be interested in what you learned if it pertains to the value of the gold faceplates. If it does and you don't feel comfortable posting it, you can pm me. But if you don't feel comfortable doing that, either, it's OK--I can understand.

Mark

boston

I was told of one that went for around $20,000 and came off a ~10 pounder. No info on the weight of the faceplate.
Definitely sold for a premium. I had hoped to find a source of info about the faceplates, but only found one owner.

Hope this provides some perspective on the value.

Boston