Do you want to know who the CERT Number Thief is?

relayer

I took down my 100% complete Modern Type Set, Proof and listed them on eBay for sale.

One coin I listed, but did not sell was a 1976-S 25c Clad Bicentenial PR69DCAM. So I went to add it to my 20th Century Type Set since you can mix business and proof strikes and got the message that I couldn't register the coin because it was already registered by another member.

It's my coin and up until last month it was in my proof set, but since then I've shown a picture with the cert number on eBay and now it's registered in someone else's set.

I notified PCGS so watch the sets that this coin will fit in and see which one loses this coin - and there is your cert number thief.

When I listed some PR70DCAMs on eBay I blanked out the cert numbers. It's surprising how many people want cert numbers.

dbldie55

I always knew you could build a set out of these numbers, but who would want to. At least if I was to do it, I would use the stack of inserts in my dealers crack out room. These will never show up in anyone elses set. I would ask them who's set it was listed in, as the coin has never been out of your possession since you last had it listed in a set.

I wouldn't lose a bunch of sleep over it though. It is only a number, not like they actually stole your coin and listed it.

WashqrtrsRme

I don't quite agree with dbldie55, as I think it very much is like stealing, whether you can get a new cert. no. or not, it's not something the owner of the coin should have to go through because of someone else's dishonesty. If you own the coin, but can't list it because someone stole the cert. number, I think I'd feel like I'd been robbed! I think this about one of the lowest acts I can think of, other than maybe actually stealing the other guys coin! Actually, it very much is like stealing, when you stop to think about it. Leave it to some dishonest jerk to ruin things for the honest people. Whomever did this, if they could somehow be indentified they should be banned from participating in the Registry and banned from this site completely!

Tom Schiera

Zerbe

dbldie55
You raised an issue, that I have a hard time understanding. You said your dealer has stacks of crackout inserts in his back room.
I know for a fact, that a lot of dealers, have "buckets of inserts ". Several well known dealers have made this statement to me. There must be a reason that dealers fail to send the inserts in, but I still cannot figure out why. I have coins valued at over $50,000 that are listed in the POP Report as POP 4 or POP 2, when they are in fact a POP 2 and a POP 1. When, say one of my coins, is resold, it's true value is lowered because, I cannot say it is a POP1, even though I know that it is. Failing to send these inserts in screws up the POP Report and actually could lower the value of coins. It seems to me that all these negligent dealers are even hurting themselves, because all these coins, that are POP1 or POP2, but showing up as POP 4 or even POP 8, in the POP Report, are going to end up in their inventory sooner or later. When you get up into higher priced rarities, it can be an important factor. Off the top of my head, I can give two personal examples. I own a PCGS MS 68 $10 Indian, listed in the POP Report as POP 4. I know for a fact, from my dealer, that it is actually a POP2. I just bought a PCGS PR67DCAM Morgan, that is listed as a POP4, but a previous dealer is holding two inserts. The true POP is POP2. It seems to me, if I were to sell my Morgan, that it would command more money and interest if it were advertised as a POP2, instead of the mistaken POP4 in the POP Report.
Maybe I am missing something here. Please enlighten me, if possible, because this issue has me totally confused. The Morgan dealer has my inserts in his safe, why ??????????
Paul Taylor

khayse

Paul,

You say the dealer you know has inserts that affect the value of your coin, have you asked
him for the inserts? Have you asked him to send them in? What does he say when you pose this
question to him?

On the Cert Number Thief, I would demand to know who the individual was. If he didn't have
an explanation (and what could that possibly be), I think he should be banned.

-KHayse

DIMEMAN

BJ should be able to go out to the database and find the cert. no. and see WHO has it. And I totally agree with the banning. It is totally dishonest and I can't even see why someone would want to act like they had a certain coin. It wouldn't do anything for me. The only honest reason for this that I can think of is that when the person entered the cert. he transposed a number that HAPPENED to be a coin that would still fit what set he was adding to. But what are the odds of that!!

Jon

python1

I'm with Jon on this one. BAN that person, but let the public know who it is....

Zerbe

Khayse,
I have asked him for the inserts, but I get the runaround. He says he has to speak to his partner one day and then its something else the next day. I have since stopped doing business with this company
for the above and other reasons. I personally think it is because they do an extroadinary amount of crackouts. I know this, but I do not know the exact reason they keep inserts. From what I can tell, they are not lax or forgetfull. There is a reason they don't send in those inserts, and I wish somebody would explain to me why that is. Paul Taylor

dbldie55

My dealer does send them back. There is no incentive from the grading services to do it anymore, so he will wait until he gets quite the stack and then send them back. If the pop reports were accurate, then keeping them that way would be incentive, but we are well past that stage.

I do agree they should ban the person who did this, but I wouldn't waste a lot of my personal energy over worrying about it. If you choose to think of this as a big deal then you should enjoy life now, as living this way will certainly lead to a shorter one.

Steve27

Is it possible that you are the thief relayer? Which is to say, have you switched email addresses since becoming a member of this forum? I had seven coins which I could not register in two different sets, it turned out to be due to changing email addresses and not a thief. Their system still has a lot of bugs in it.

relayer

I was thinking maybe it's a clerical error, but Gayle said she emailed the person who has it registered and is waiting for a reply.

Maybe I'll have to take a picture of it next to todays newspaper like a kidnapping victim

clackamas

>>I think this about one of the lowest acts I can think of,

I think thats a little harsh, there are quite a few things I can think of that make this extremely minor. What ever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Look up cert#'s on either side of the coin in question. I bet there are similar coins, even the same coin with nearly the identical cert #. Although this mistake is probably not a mix up everyone should chill, PCGS will figure it out and it will be alright in the end.

Spooly

Ban them from the Registry!

triplexotica

I had that crap happen to me with a few of my platinum coins, heck I have so many I cant keep of them myself, when I list my MS-70 WTC (PCGS) $5 I'm going to blank out the last 3 digits yea I know someone will probably sit there all day and figure them out funny I own all in existance so it's going to be a pleasure watching that person get banned and also be sued by me personally... = )

gmarguli

I have coins valued at over $50,000 that are listed in the POP Report as POP 4 or POP 2, when they are in fact a POP 2 and a POP 1. When, say one of my coins, is resold, it's true value is lowered because, I cannot say it is a POP1, even though I know that it is.

If it is a real coin and not some fake rarity crap (MS70 WTC listed below), then it shouldn't affect its value. Buyers of these types of coins will know their actual rarity. They'll know that none of these "4 coins" has made an appearance at auction. They'll know that the major dealers that they have dealt with haven't handled these other coins.

The price realized will be inline with what it had been if it had been a pop 1 coin in the pop reports. After all, look at some coins that have had more graded than their original mintage. Has it hurt their value?

Zerbe

gmarguli,
I am talking "real coins" as you say. I think I have to disagree on the value of a POP 1 versus a POP 4. One example; I have an 1895
PCGS PR67DCAM. The pop report shows 4 but it should be 2. If another person is doing a PCGS proof morgan set and knows, just by looking at my posted registry set that I have one, then he knows if the other one comes up for sale at an auction, then that is his only chance to grab one and will probably bid higher. On the other hand if he looks in the POP REPORT AND finds 4 listed, he may wait for one of the others to come up for sale and not bid as aggressively. Thats just my opinion. But the real focus of this thread was; why do dealers hold onto inserts, especially on high value rarities. There has to be a reason, and I can't wait to hear the answer.

gmarguli

Zerbe, I would think that most people who could afford a high power coin like that would have done research on the marketplace for it and known that 4 might not be a correct figure. Anyone just looking at the pop report isn't likely to be an informed buyer and will probably not be buying high power coins.

As for why dealers don't send in their inserts, I think it is because there is no real incentive for them to. It costs them time and money and the grading services don't even thank them. Besides, the grading services frequently screw with the dealers and aren't helpful to them, so why should a dealer do something for them.

I know the dealer is possibly hurting his own ability to price coins higher, but I doubt if they look at it that way. It's viewed as us (dealers) against them (grading services).

Zerbe

gmarguli
For this particular coin, 1895 PR67DCAM, it would'nt be far fetched for someone to believe there was 4 instead of 2, because they are cranking out cameo and deep cameo's at a record pace. Anybody with a white proof morgan or barber that turns deep cameo, can at least double their money, so it is hard to keep up with these cams and deep cams. And I still maintain that dealers not turning in inserts is a major problem that should be corrected. I think the POP Report was a great idea and it would have been so much better if dealers had sent in the inserts. David Hall, can you come up with an idea to correct this situation before the POP Report is useless????
Thanks----Paul Taylor

braddick

Unfortunutely many of these high power coins are being sold to deep pocket speculators/investors instead of Collectors.
The "4" pop vs the real "2" pop could hurt the value/price of these big ticket coins.

relayer

gmarguli,


Believe me - Paul Taylor definitely has REAL COINS - in fact he has REAL NICE COINS

Paul-

How about putting some pictures in your sets. I'd love the see them

Zerbe

relayer
I am just getting used to my first ever computer. Three months ago I did'nt even know how to turn a computer on. I can not say when, but eventually, I will learn how to post pictures. Real nice coins deserve real nice pictures.




Paul

solid

Paul,

I can't speak as to why any individual dealer would keep a safe full of crackout inserts, but
I can imagine how valuable the collective information would be worth if someone could discern
true pops from the published pops based on all the cert numbers that have not been turned
in.

Armed with that knowledge, it would be fairly easy to identify potentially underpriced coins
and scoop them up at bargain prices as a long-term investment. There would be some
top-pop coins, as in the examples you provided, but there would be numerous cases of
next-grade-down coins being undervalued, as these probably represent the most inflated
pop numbers.

I agree that this is a BIG problem that will ONLY GET WORSE, unless something is done. I
would be willing to pay $5 more for each coin graded, if there was a $5 refund available
for cert numbers that were turned in. This would go a long ways to keeping the pop
reports accurate.

Of course, it's too late for that now. I predict that at some point in the future this will be
addressed, and that it will require the grading services to start a new set of population
reports from scratch.

Ken

Whitewashqtr

I guess I fill a very nice set with stolen cert numbers from the rare issues and then if I were to sell of my set piece by piece, I could advertise it as the #2, #3 or even #1 set all time and make really good miney on the pieces I own.

As for the dealers not sending in their certs.. SOLID makes a great point. Take your POP 4 (really pop 2 example).. if the dealer had one of those 2 coins then he could actually prove it being POP 2 and sell it as such. And the reverse is true... he could buy coins with apparently higher pops for less money.

SO... BUY THE COIN!! IT SHOULD SELL ITSELF!!

BJ

Relayer,

Please email me the certification number of the coin in question. I can certainly track it down.

It has happened occasionally where people have used certification numbers they found on ebay to enter into their set to see what it would do to their rating. Of course, this is not playing within the rules, and for people who would like to see how different grades will effect their set, I'm always happy to send a spreadsheet with formulas.

There have been a few (fortunately ONLY a few) who have blatantly used certs in their sets not belonging to them and have had no intention of removing the coins until they were caught. However, best I can tell, this has not been a major problem. If anyone knows of another registrant who is abusing the system, I certainly would like to know about it. In MOST cases, when a cert won't be accepted it is because the seller has simply not removed it from his or her set.

leothelyon

I would think that there would be a better way to keep the population numbers accurate. To leave this up to buyers to turn in cracked out inserts is ludicrous. When a coin is certified and a custumer pays by a credit card then the certification number on the slab should match part of the that custumers credit card
number held at PCGS before a slab number could be entered into a registry set. For accuracy of the population report, the coin needs to be computer identified like fingerprints. Case solved! Give me a break.

Leo

relayer

Well PCGS fixed the problem today and I was able to enter the coin in my set.

BJ-

I copied you on the email thanking Gayle. If you could follow up here on what happened I think other Registry participants would be interested.

I don't know how often this happens and how many sets are made up of virtual numbers, but on PR70DCAM coins I've blanked out the cert number when listing them on eBay. Which upsets some people

What would be a nice enhancement to the Registry would be able to take your set into a "What If" mode where you could take your set and enter grades for additions and upgrades and have the set rating calculated. Seems like a better system then the "borrowing" cert numbers from eBay system.

dbldie55

Why would you care? If someone wants to know what a set would rate, they would take the 30 seconds to figure it out! Why people worry about this sort of thing is beyond me. I guess some people just like to worry about things that have no meaning in their lives. I would love to know how many coins listed in the registry belong to people who do not own the insert the coin is listed with. What do you think it is, .0005% .005%? I mean, does anyone really think this is a problem? Be real...

RegistryCoin

<< <i>I would love to know how many coins listed in the registry belong to people who do not own the insert the coin is listed with. >>


Me too. I think this can be, perhaps already is a big problem.

relayer

Seems like there are quite a few out there

merz2

relayer
This thread is one of the reasons I had pics posted to my Registry Set.By doing so,no one could accuse me of this very thing.

LucyBop

Cert number thieves are squares!

grip

Merz,
What's keeping someone from posting a scan of of a coin that dont belong to them?.Al

DeepCoin

The excuse of using someone else's coin to see what it would do to a set rating is really weak. I have an Excel spreadsheet that I use for my Merc set that took about 5 minutes to create. I can tell exactly what the rating would be, both weighted and unweighted.

If any of the Merc collectors would like a copy, PM me and I will email it to you. The concept is easily adaptable to any series, you just have to change the weightings for the individual coins.