frattlaw - maybe you could explain this statement to me a little more clearly:
"I never accept anything that someone tells me @ face value. Especially when someone is trying to explain a potential problem. Lesson #1 from law school as well as lessons #1-10 as a new lawyer."
Then maybe you could enlighten us all as to what type of law you practice. Maybe your statement is predicated on the type of law.
actually, it was a well presented position, until this came up:
<< <i>Now..............
One thing has always puzzled me about the conflict of interest issue. Many people bag on PCGS about conflict of interest, but no one ever talks about the NGC/Heritage situation. David Hall >>
kinda blows the credibility out of all that was previously stated.
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
To explain my position more clearly (which really surprises me that I have to) ---
EVERYONE lies! It is just a fact of life. My clients lie to me whether I'm doing plaintiff work or I'm representing large insurance companies or Fortune 500 companies or whether it was while I was working @ the PD's office in Washington DC as an investigator. It's the nature of the business. If there were no problems with your case, you probably wouldn't need to see a lawyer. Cases that are "slam-dunks" rarely exist. If you think you have a "slam-dunk" case, you probably don't. Therefore, there are problems in every case that a lawyer needs to navigate. Most clients aren't going to walk into your office and say "hey will you take my case here's all the problems that I have with it." Usually what happens is that clients tell you there side of the story, and forget to tell you everything. You usually find that out much later during discovery. If you navigate well, you can resolve the issue and possible settle the case. If you can't, you usually find yourself in trial. Lawyers that end up in trial, usually aren't very good at case management.
Unfortunately, people don't tend to be truthful. I've seen hundreds of people lie under oath in depositions and trial, including police officers. It's a daily occurence for me. I've probably taken more then 1000 depositions in my career.
We've all seen a President lie under oath. If I can't trust what someone says when they been sworn in, what makes you think you can trust what they say on a Forum thread?
I don't mean to sound so jaded, but it is what it is!
One thing has always puzzled me about the conflict of interest issue. Many people bag on PCGS about conflict of interest, but no one ever talks about the NGC/Heritage situation. David Hall >>"
I was happy to see SarasotaFrank's post as I have been thinking the same thing......why in the world bring that up?? It's not entirely off point, yet does not contribute to the forward motion of the boat....that's for sure. Bringing someone else into this will not deflect the percieved problems nor enhance the argument and in fact may just add fuel to the entire debate.
fratlaw: you do sound a bit jaded. I too have taken thousands of depositions and tried many many cases and I agree that lying is the rule rather than the exception. But, I don't think Mr. Hall is lying. Granted, neither you nor I are cross-examining him. Take a look at the FTC case I mentioned earlier. It preceded the corporate roll-up, but it touched on the conflict issues.
Law -- you have to realize this debate was started by Mr. Hall and he labeled it as a "conflict of interest." While I agree there are no legal conflicts of interest involved in this matter and it is more of an unfair business practice issue, there is an appearence of a conflict of interest in regards to publicity/customer service for DHRC, CU, PCGS and David Hall.
There is nothing that says DHRC can't submit to PCGS and receive 70s. There's nothing that says DHRC can't sell those coins for big $$$. I would expect those coins to be perfect and to be backed by the PCGS grade guaranty. Therefore, it's probably fine to purchase those coins from DHRC whether they were bought on the open market or submitted by a entity of CU to PCGS for grading. If they weren't 70s I'm sure PCGS would buy them back or DHRC would refund your purchase price.
I feel that Hall's statements were really not necessary. He didn't need to explain this. He was probably told by CU's corporate attorney to stop posting these types of things on the Forum and that's why he hasn't been back to explain further as he insinuated he would. I would certainly tell my client to shut up and say nothing.
However, it just doesn't pass the smell test from a customer's view point. Why should DHRC have a large percentage of the retail 70s market? Better question -- How is it that they do? There's the rub as my grandfather use to say. And if you know what rub means you know what I mean.
frattlaw - your not jaded, your obviously an abuse case. No, not everybody lies. Your presentation here sucked. Your obviously implying that D. Hall is a lier. Bad position to take on this thread. It was about conflicts of interest. Some other lawyers made a pass here. I suggest you go back and re-read some of them to see how to do it better next time.
I am actually quite disturbed by this entire thread. All of you are ignoring what really "is" and you're trying to tell David what "should" be. Do you all need to remember that David has created the most superior grading company in the world? Do you need to remember how successful this man truly is? He is far wealthier than many of us on this board and he DID have a vision for this company and that vision has lasted 17 years now and even longer with his other companies, such as DHRC. I, for one, believe him entirely and would have no reason to suspect that he is lying. I am disturbed that someone would even call him a liar on this board.
The business structure he has set up is complicated, indeed, but do you believe you could have done any better? We are sitting here telling a man that I highly admire for his entrepeneurship that he "should" change the workings of his corporation. I'm sure there are reasons behind what is done. I'm sure there are reasons why Bowers and Merena and PCGS are in the same area, maybe tax reasons? I don't know. While many of the suggestions here on this board would definitely make good policy, I sincerely believe it is wrong to judge, wrong to call him a liar, wrong to even question him with all that he has done for this hobby and all that he is as a man.
For David to want to make a change in his buisness practices, he probably would have to believe himself that a change is needed, if you've read his tone at the start of this thread, he does not believe that there is a real conflict of interest, just a peception on some peoples part that there could be a perception of a conflict of interest.
One other thing, don't the stock holders and board of directors who answer to those stock holder set policy for publicly traded companies at share holder meetings ? If the majority of the stock holders want to force changes in the buisness practice of a company, can't they force those changes to occur ?
If you don't own stock in a publicly traded company, do you have the right to ask for changes in how the company deals with perceived conflicts of interest ?
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
for a bunch of pretty smart and accomplished folks, I find it hard to believe no one really "got it" yet.
This thread had very very little to do with a perceived conflict of interest and very much to do with taking a shot at a possible conflict of interest across the street.
The "oh by the way" at the bottom of the post was clearly the original subject matter.
This is why people who have a genuinely extraordinary skill, such as David make great entrepreneurs and lousy managers of the businesses spawned by their skill. However, since the business is built on their skill, they occupy the corner office.
In the real world, no top CEO is his right mind would have made this post. "Well, I understand the perception is that we have our shoes made by slave labor in China, but why is no one complaining about XYZ which has their shoes made by disabled slaves in Bothswana who get a toe cut off if they don't meet their production quotas!" How come no one is complaining about that?
Ever see the CEO of General Motors being interviewed about his products and talking about how lousy Fords and Chryslers are?
"You can't help small men by tearing down big men" - Abraham Lincoln
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
Just to point out that David's comment to lead off this thread occurred SEVEN MONTHS AGO. It has nothing to do with the comments now being made, but it is important to be aware of the timeframe involved. Steve
<< <i>Just to point out that David's comment to lead off this thread occurred SEVEN MONTHS AGO. It has nothing to do with the comments now being made, but it is important to be aware of the timeframe involved. Steve >>
LOL Steve. I thought Marguli had been reinstated in my absence.
Today or seven months ago - it was a bad idea then, and it would be a bad idea now.
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
<< <i>Just to point out that David's comment to lead off this thread occurred SEVEN MONTHS AGO. It has nothing to do with the comments now being made, but it is important to be aware of the timeframe involved. Steve >>
<< <i>If you don't own stock in a publicly traded company, do you have the right to ask for changes in how the company deals with perceived conflicts of interest ? >>
I AM a stockholder in CLCT and have been doing exactly that. Asking for a change in the structure of CLCT to create the proper firewalls to protect us from potential conflicts.
I do not have a problem with David Hall's code of honor, but let's face it, David is not getting any younger and I read my history. Marcus Aurelius, Emperor of Rome in the 2nd century AD, finally saw the need to return to the Republic system that had prevailed 2 centuries before since the Roman Empire was decaying and needed to revitalize itself. It was still #1 in the world but Rome was now engaged in stronger competition.
As good as Marcus Aurelius may have been, he waited until he was too old to try to implement the desperately needed changes to eliminate the one man rule of Rome. Rome's flame only burned brighter for a while because of the extrordinary talents of this one good man. But in the end, he did not provide for the continuity of Rome's future as he felt that the honor of one man might possibly be respected by future men. Sadly the future emperors of Rome did not usually respect Marcus Aurelius's code of honor. Rome faded away after Marcus Aurelius passed on.
The same thing can and must be said for CLCT and PCGS. David Hall's code of honor will only last as long as he is around. But the firewalls are not set in place to assure the well being and health of CLCT/PCGS after David Hall is gone. We will be at the mercy of a future leader that might or might not have the same code of ethics as David Hall. Since there is no guarantee of that, investors have voted with their pocketbook re CLCT stock. It is still languishing below the old pre split price if $1 a share.
Sweeping changes are still needed for the long term health of CLCT. Investors have adopted a wait and see attitude as what will happen.
As I have said before, David Hall is a good man. However, his greatness will be assured if he has the courage to set up the model that avoids even the appearance of conflict of interest! That would be truly inspiring and be a model that would last for centuries. That would be the greatest legacy anyone could leave behind.
Until then, we just have a company that may simply fade away after David Hall is no longer with us.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Comments
<< <i>Frattlaw, Oreville, Placid...Thanks for the great posts. It's a complicated subject...more later.
>>
is it later yet?
"I never accept anything that someone tells me @ face value. Especially when someone is trying to explain a potential problem. Lesson #1 from law school as well as lessons #1-10 as a new lawyer."
Then maybe you could enlighten us all as to what type of law you practice. Maybe your statement is predicated on the type of law.
Just curious.
<< <i>Now..............
One thing has always puzzled me about the conflict of interest issue. Many people bag on PCGS about conflict of interest, but no one ever talks about the NGC/Heritage situation.
David Hall >>
kinda blows the credibility out of all that was previously stated.
K S
EVERYONE lies! It is just a fact of life. My clients lie to me whether I'm doing plaintiff work or I'm representing large insurance companies or Fortune 500 companies or whether it was while I was working @ the PD's office in Washington DC as an investigator. It's the nature of the business. If there were no problems with your case, you probably wouldn't need to see a lawyer. Cases that are "slam-dunks" rarely exist. If you think you have a "slam-dunk" case, you probably don't. Therefore, there are problems in every case that a lawyer needs to navigate. Most clients aren't going to walk into your office and say "hey will you take my case here's all the problems that I have with it." Usually what happens is that clients tell you there side of the story, and forget to tell you everything. You usually find that out much later during discovery. If you navigate well, you can resolve the issue and possible settle the case. If you can't, you usually find yourself in trial. Lawyers that end up in trial, usually aren't very good at case management.
Unfortunately, people don't tend to be truthful. I've seen hundreds of people lie under oath in depositions and trial, including police officers. It's a daily occurence for me. I've probably taken more then 1000 depositions in my career.
We've all seen a President lie under oath. If I can't trust what someone says when they been sworn in, what makes you think you can trust what they say on a Forum thread?
I don't mean to sound so jaded, but it is what it is!
Michael
One thing has always puzzled me about the conflict of interest issue. Many people bag on PCGS about conflict of interest, but no one ever talks about the NGC/Heritage situation.
David Hall >>"
I was happy to see SarasotaFrank's post as I have been thinking the same thing......why in the world bring that up?? It's not entirely off point, yet does not contribute to the forward motion of the boat....that's for sure. Bringing someone else into this will not deflect the percieved problems nor enhance the argument and in fact may just add fuel to the entire debate.
Mike Printz
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
There is nothing that says DHRC can't submit to PCGS and receive 70s. There's nothing that says DHRC can't sell those coins for big $$$. I would expect those coins to be perfect and to be backed by the PCGS grade guaranty. Therefore, it's probably fine to purchase those coins from DHRC whether they were bought on the open market or submitted by a entity of CU to PCGS for grading. If they weren't 70s I'm sure PCGS would buy them back or DHRC would refund your purchase price.
I feel that Hall's statements were really not necessary. He didn't need to explain this. He was probably told by CU's corporate attorney to stop posting these types of things on the Forum and that's why he hasn't been back to explain further as he insinuated he would. I would certainly tell my client to shut up and say nothing.
However, it just doesn't pass the smell test from a customer's view point. Why should DHRC have a large percentage of the retail 70s market? Better question -- How is it that they do? There's the rub as my grandfather use to say. And if you know what rub means you know what I mean.
Michael
The business structure he has set up is complicated, indeed, but do you believe you could have done any better? We are sitting here telling a man that I highly admire for his entrepeneurship that he "should" change the workings of his corporation. I'm sure there are reasons behind what is done. I'm sure there are reasons why Bowers and Merena and PCGS are in the same area, maybe tax reasons? I don't know. While many of the suggestions here on this board would definitely make good policy, I sincerely believe it is wrong to judge, wrong to call him a liar, wrong to even question him with all that he has done for this hobby and all that he is as a man.
One other thing, don't the stock holders and board of directors who answer to those stock holder set policy for publicly traded companies at share holder meetings ? If the majority of the stock holders want to force changes in the buisness practice of a company, can't they force those changes to occur ?
If you don't own stock in a publicly traded company, do you have the right to ask for changes in how the company deals with perceived conflicts of interest ?
Les
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
barberlover
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
This thread had very very little to do with a perceived conflict of interest and very much to do with taking a shot at a possible conflict of interest across the street.
The "oh by the way" at the bottom of the post was clearly the original subject matter.
This is why people who have a genuinely extraordinary skill, such as David make great entrepreneurs and lousy managers of the businesses spawned by their skill. However, since the business is built on their skill, they occupy the corner office.
In the real world, no top CEO is his right mind would have made this post. "Well, I understand the perception is that we have our shoes made by slave labor in China, but why is no one complaining about XYZ which has their shoes made by disabled slaves in Bothswana who get a toe cut off if they don't meet their production quotas!" How come no one is complaining about that?
Ever see the CEO of General Motors being interviewed about his products and talking about how lousy Fords and Chryslers are?
"You can't help small men by tearing down big men" - Abraham Lincoln
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Just to point out that David's comment to lead off this thread occurred SEVEN MONTHS AGO. It has nothing to do with the comments now being made, but it is important to be aware of the timeframe involved. Steve
LOL Steve. I thought Marguli had been reinstated in my absence.
Today or seven months ago - it was a bad idea then, and it would be a bad idea now.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
09/07/2006
Now that's funny -- a sort of what if David Hall and Lucy had a child pic!
Michael
<< <i>
Sums up my feelings.
Camelot
<< <i>Just to point out that David's comment to lead off this thread occurred SEVEN MONTHS AGO. It has nothing to do with the comments now being made, but it is important to be aware of the timeframe involved. Steve
Yes, a thread resuscitation.
<< <i>If you don't own stock in a publicly traded company, do you have the right to ask for changes in how the company deals with perceived conflicts of interest ? >>
I AM a stockholder in CLCT and have been doing exactly that. Asking for a change in the structure of CLCT to create the proper firewalls to protect us from potential conflicts.
I do not have a problem with David Hall's code of honor, but let's face it, David is not getting any younger and I read my history. Marcus Aurelius, Emperor of Rome in the 2nd century AD, finally saw the need to return to the Republic system that had prevailed 2 centuries before since the Roman Empire was decaying and needed to revitalize itself. It was still #1 in the world but Rome was now engaged in stronger competition.
As good as Marcus Aurelius may have been, he waited until he was too old to try to implement the desperately needed changes to eliminate the one man rule of Rome. Rome's flame only burned brighter for a while because of the extrordinary talents of this one good man. But in the end, he did
not provide for the continuity of Rome's future as he felt that the honor of one man might possibly be respected by future men. Sadly the future emperors of Rome did not usually respect Marcus Aurelius's code of honor. Rome faded away after Marcus Aurelius passed on.
The same thing can and must be said for CLCT and PCGS. David Hall's code of honor will only last as long as he is around. But the firewalls are not set in place to assure the well being and health of CLCT/PCGS after David Hall is gone. We will be at the mercy of a future leader that might or might not have the same code of ethics as David Hall. Since there is no guarantee of that, investors have voted with their pocketbook re CLCT stock. It is still languishing below the old pre split price if $1 a share.
Sweeping changes are still needed for the long term health of CLCT. Investors have adopted a wait and see attitude as what will happen.
As I have said before, David Hall is a good man. However, his greatness will be assured if he has the courage to set up the model that avoids even the appearance of conflict of interest! That would be truly inspiring and be a model that would last for centuries. That would be the greatest legacy anyone could leave behind.
Until then, we just have a company that may simply fade away after David Hall is no longer with us.
History has a "funny" way of repeating itself.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
WE NEVER SUBMITT COINS THAT WE OWN TO PCGS FOR GRADING. WE ARE NEVER OUR OWN CUSTOMER
<<
hmm, i am a little confused at who is "we"?
they