David Hall - expose the doctor of the 1913-D $20
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
David,
There has been much talk on this board about coin doctors and the fact that some are apparently well known. But, for whatever reasons, no one will reveal them publicly. The damage they do to the coins, as well as the people who buy and sell them and the hobby as a whole, is unfathomable.
Here is an opportunity for you to take a major step in the right direction. Expose the doctor who ruined Legend's 1913-D $20, cost PCGS $15,000 and tainted the hobby for many people who are now aware of what happened in this instance and who now have knowledge of this BIG problem in our industry.
Ok, I'm putting my lawyer's hat on for a minute (I got my law degree for situations just like this one). Maybe you don't KNOW who the doctor is and/or can't prove it. In that case, you might have concerns about covering your butt legally. I can understand and sympathize with that.
If that is the case, you are still within your rights and protected legally if you simply disclose the names of anyone you are aware of, who owned the coin before Legend did. People would then be free to draw their own conclusions. Before you ask - what if someone who is completely blameless is suspected of having done wrong? Let that person make a public statement. I know, that if our company had handled the coin and was mentioned as having done so, we would have no problem addressing the issue, head-on.
I very much look forward to your reply.
There has been much talk on this board about coin doctors and the fact that some are apparently well known. But, for whatever reasons, no one will reveal them publicly. The damage they do to the coins, as well as the people who buy and sell them and the hobby as a whole, is unfathomable.
Here is an opportunity for you to take a major step in the right direction. Expose the doctor who ruined Legend's 1913-D $20, cost PCGS $15,000 and tainted the hobby for many people who are now aware of what happened in this instance and who now have knowledge of this BIG problem in our industry.
Ok, I'm putting my lawyer's hat on for a minute (I got my law degree for situations just like this one). Maybe you don't KNOW who the doctor is and/or can't prove it. In that case, you might have concerns about covering your butt legally. I can understand and sympathize with that.
If that is the case, you are still within your rights and protected legally if you simply disclose the names of anyone you are aware of, who owned the coin before Legend did. People would then be free to draw their own conclusions. Before you ask - what if someone who is completely blameless is suspected of having done wrong? Let that person make a public statement. I know, that if our company had handled the coin and was mentioned as having done so, we would have no problem addressing the issue, head-on.
I very much look forward to your reply.
0
Comments
<< <i>disclose the names of anyone you are aware of, who owned the coin before Legend did >>
mark, i think what you are asking is unreasonable. if i were a coin dealer, i would not under any circumstances reveal customer information. as a customer, i would expect such privacy as well. i also would not do business w/ any company that had such practices. there are serious security issues involved
K S
I think your request is reasonable. Whether it would result in a legal issue is something else. Giving names may save collectors thousands in the long run. Keeping them in the dark hurts not only the grading services, and collectors, but companies like yours.
I for one would like to see the names made public.
Which is better, having dozens of dealers gossiping about who it is or setting the record straight?
The coin was purchased at Stacks I bet everyone at Stacks who has the ability has taken a look at who the consingnee was. I bet even Legend bragged about their new acquisition after purchase. I think you get the point. By now probably 100 or so people know for sure the ID of the perp. Maybe another 50 can guess or were hinted the ID.
Bottom line alot of people already know. I am sure I could call 2 of my dealers and they know or can find out.
Keepingthis silent and under wraps is what these guys want! Exposing them will force the others in line and end this cheating.
This is something like I was thinking. One of you guys must have been at the auction and saw who bought this coin, that should be able to be disclosed with out any problems.
edited because I made absolutely no sense the first time...and probably still don't
Wondercoin.
<< <i>KS - This particular coin, so far as I know, was purchased at public (not private) auction. And, I will go out on a limb and speculate that no one other than dealers handled it in the interim. It's not like Legend bought it privately from a client of theirs. However, if you choose to disagree with my opinion I will still respect yours. >>
that is fair. but this suddenly reminds me an awful lot of the infamous "deb" thread where a name & address was blurted out on the forum - & no concrete verfication of the information ever occurred. what if you post the name of an alleged coin doctor - and you are wrong? (please read on to see my point)
<< <i>Which is better, having dozens of dealers gossiping about who it is or setting the record straight? >>
friends, i know i'm in the micro-minority on this 1, but blaring out the names of "coin-doctors" ultimately will have the opposite effect. you blot out 1 coin dr, 2 more will pop up. i WOULD rather have dealers gossip between themselves & serve as filters for us , the collectors. frankly, i don't WANT to know the names of coin dr's, or anything like that. i don't WANT to have to be worried about it, as a collector! i just want to collect coins, in confidence! i want my DEALER to know though, & for him to do his job of filtering out that kind of crap. bottom line is that that's your job! as legitimate dealers, DO NOT BUY coins from coin doctors, work w/ your dealer friends, get to know who the doctors are amongst you, & avoid them. & when you find out that 1 of your fellow dealers practices that sort of crap - buying doctored coins - HE's the 1 that should go down.
mark, i am not bragging, not trying to give myself a high profile or any thing like that, but i could reveal the names & addresses of 10 coin doctors right now, that all they do is work at getting "enhanced" coins in slabs and/or dealer's cases - & they are quite successful at it. but i also know who they do business with, and i DO NOT buy coins from those dealers. what is sickening though, is when i go to a FUN, or a long-beach, or a central-states, or a ana show, & i see the same danged coin doctors day after day dragging their musty old coin suitcases behind them from table to table, selling their boxes of disgusting, fumigating greasy coppers & their silly, dizzying array of rainbow colored morgans & walkers - to major, national dealers, & i know those coins are getting moved on to an unsuspecting public.
are the doctors really the biggest culprit? or is it the dealers who subsidize the coin doctors? the supply exists ONLY because there is a demand
<< <i>Keepingthis silent and under wraps is what these guys want! Exposing them will force the others in line and end this cheating. >>
baloney, you can't tell me that a coin doctor won't find some way to get his coins out on the bourse floor. again, dealers must STOP buying that crap, you cutoff the market, & the supply will drop off.
sorry to go off like this, & absolutely NONE of this is aimed at you (mark) personally, or anyone in particular on this board. but i just think it is a difficult problem, & there are no easy solutions. & pasting someone's name up across an internet forum sounds like wishful thinking for easy solution.
i respect your position, & am only trying to present an alternate point of view, which most may well consider to be utterly worthless
K S
In answer to your questions - to my knowledge, neither NGC nor PCGS makes a practice of publicly disclosing suspected coin doctors.
I think you are in the right, It is not really up to the collector to know who the dr's are ( I have enough problems with my grading
the dealers. They are like an exclusive club in a way
so if the dealers that buy doctored coins knowingly from known doctors all of a sudden found that they could not sell their coins then a lot of this come to a halt ..this is just my rambling opinion
Fred
Fred
You said "i want my DEALER to know though, & for him to do his job of filtering out that kind of crap. bottom line is that that's your job! as legitimate dealers, DO NOT BUY coins from coin doctors, work w/ your dealer friends, get to know who the doctors are amongst you, & avoid them. & when you find out that 1 of your fellow dealers practices that sort of crap - buying doctored coins - HE's the 1 that should go down."
That is good, in theory. However, if these names aren't publicized, even dealers who want to avoid doing business with the doctors may end up buying coins, either directly from them, or from someone else who has bought from them.
By the way, Karl, please quit bragging about knowing all of those doctors
You also asked "are the doctors really the biggest culprit? or is it the dealers who subsidize the coin doctors?"
If the names aren't public, even dealers with good intentions might be subsidizing the doctors, without even being aware of it.
I took none of what you said personally and appreciate your opinions regarding this very difficult problem with, as you said, no easy solutions.
I will not be pushing this particular issue further at this time, out of respect for Laura's earlier post, wherein she stated " Also, on the issue of releasing the name of who I bought it from, that shall have to stay between us and PCGS. Take Davids word on it, they are going after coin Dr.s hard and heavy. Its like the war in Afganistan, he can't disclose everything in public."
i really do think pcgs (& ngc & anacs & icg) try their best to filter out doctored coins, & i bet that despite all the complaints, they actually do a darned good job of it.
but then again, that's from a guy who (1) doesn't own slabs & (2) believes that all coins w/ wild'n'crazy colors are a-t'd... shows what my opinion's worth
K S
My supposition on this issue, is that Mr. Hall, Mr. Bowers, Mr Albanese, Mr. Salzburg and a SELECT few other people in numismatics are the ONLY people who have the POWER and financial resources to do anything about this. It will take a massive and lengthy effort to address this problem. It will take a concerted legal effort by dealers, collectors, grading services, and numismatic organizations. In the long run, as we can see from ONE instance with Laura, PCGS, and her Saint, the money that Mr. Hall and PCGS are going to shell out would have been much better spent in a PREVENTATIVE way. Perhaps by contributing to an industry wide legal defense fund. As it stands this money has been wasted, and no one is being held accountable, and a little piece of history (the coin) has been irrepairably damaged.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>Its like the war in Afganistan, he can't disclose everything in public." >>
This is true Mark, but every single night I watch the news, there are always the names and faces of suspected terrorists we are looking for. The only thing that may not be mentioned in public is how they are ultimately dealt with.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Doesn't it sometimes go that the dealer sends coin to coin doctor who does his/her thing, dealer takes the risk if doctoring unsuccessful OR dealer pays doctor percentage based on gains realized from doctoring. I THINK Scott Travers presented this scenario in his Survivors Manual.
On a side note, there is allegedly a coin doctor in my local area. I hear several dealers badmouth him BEHIND his back, yet, seem to conduct much business with him.
I've not seen him "doctoring" but I have seen him extend a lot of credit to a couple local dealers, kinda' like he has his hooks in them. He also moves a lot of merchandise, but only via other storefront dealers. Does this sound like a typical coin doctor?
1) Did the coin doctor break any laws? Is this fraud/conspiracy to defraud across state lines/transport of illegitimate graded coin across state lines/something even more sinister?
When I asked David Hall what will become of the coin, he mentioned they may go after the submitter - I am reading a PCGS submission form (I like #6 on the back -> PCGS shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for an personal injury or damage to any coin, or otherwise, resulting from the breaking open of a PCGS coin holder,....) and I do not see anything that would suggest submitters would be liable for PCGS errors resulting from their submission. I am surprised they do not mention to keep away from small children as may cause choking if swallowed.
2) What is the legal precedence that PCGS can use to go after the doctor of this coin?
I got a degree but NEVER practiced law. I entered the coin business on a full time basis right after my bar exam. After a couple of enjoyable years passed and I saw that I was going to be a real, live coin dealer, I quit paying my bar dues and consequently, was no longer licensed to practice.
I don't feel qualified to answer, whether legally, the coin doctor broke any laws. Perhaps Adrian or one of the other real attorneys can answer that question. I am sorry that I can't.
Assuming that the coin doctor was an authorized PCGS dealer and was the one who submitted the coin to PCGS for grading, however, he would have been in violation of his PCGS authorized dealer agreement. I don't have a copy of the agreement with me but am confident that coin doctoring is prohibited and that PCGS can take action as a result.
Shoot the whole load against the perpetators now and you have lost your ammunition when negotiating a just and fair settlement.
While I don't know of 10 coin doctors (only 3), my vision of them is drastically different than the one presented earlier. All 3 of these gentlemen take table at shows and present nice displays of top coins. If any are doctored, I don't really know. Many of those are probably wholesaled away so as not to draw attention to their cases. These guys don't drag any suitcases and usually tend to work on one or two top level coins at a time. Like a 13d Saint for example. Or add toning to a rubbed MS63 rare date seated coin and get it to a 64 or 65 grade. These same doctors get top treatment from fellow dealers and the auction houses. I have to believe that most of the top dealers are well aware what they do.
roadrunner