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Mr. Hall - The LARGER issue of coin doctors

AndroidAndroid Posts: 726 ✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
David, You've taken the first step! Admitting that there IS a problem. Congratulations! Now for a tough one. As one of the most widely known, highly respected, and most powerful men in numismatics, what ARE you going to do about the issue of known coin doctors? Particularly the ones that obviously, as demonstrated in these threads, are costing you a great deal of money and credibility? Doctors you and others KNOW. When is an EXAMPLE going to be made of one of these thieves? Can politics be set aside with the other grading services long enough to provide a UNITED front to minimize, EXPOSE and eliminate this blight? It seems to me that you are one of a few people who could actually do something about this. I certainly don't claim to know the "ins and outs" of this problem because I don't. My view is certainly simplistic, but I do think that you, and those like you, can wield a little power for the benefit of the hobby, and everyones pocketbook, including your own.

Sorry for such a rough question so early in your debut as a regular poster on your forum. I certainly mean no disrespect. I'm sure there are a lot of people here who are going to ask you a lot of tough questions, and I hope you address them, or at least discuss them with us. Simple discussions and explanations, even the ones we don't necessarily want to hear, go a long way in addressing the issues of reasonable people.
Thanks for talking with us.

Andy


We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.

First POTD 9/19/05!!

Comments

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree with the above - coin doctoring shouldn't be taken into account by PCGS when assigning a "market" or "net" grade - it should be body bagged. It's hurting PCGS's credibility.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    i don't think any genuine coin should be "body-bagged".

    K S
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭
    I agree with dorkkarl on this one.image

    Any coin can be graded with a notation of any significant problems etc.

    Hopefully this will help newbies and others identify such coins (though I fear they would just be cracked out and sold raw).

    It is still a coin. I don't understand the prohibition of grading a problem coin (as long as it is notated).

    Joe.
  • paigowjohnnypaigowjohnny Posts: 4,257 ✭
    I gotta agree with dorkkarl as well...and it is one thing I like about ANACS. I don't think any grading service would lose credibility by "net grading"...and then being clear about the observed problem.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let me clarify. I recently evaluated a 1877 MS65R IHC that had been doctored by removing carbon spots with a sharp instrument. There was no notation on the slab. When inquiring about it, the PCGS reply was that it had been taken into consideration and the net grade was 65R. I don't think that's proper. A less compulsive collector could have bought it thinking it was a great coin, guaranteed by PCGS.

    As it stands now, PCGS doesn't list a net grade on the slab...they leave it up to you to figure out what the hidden problems are. Because of this, all PCGS coins have become suspect in my eyes. If they would begin listing net grades with a clear explanation, it would be a positive step. If they don't, the coin should be left raw.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • GilbertGilbert Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭
    "... that had been doctored by removing carbon spots with a sharp instrument. There was no notation on the slab..."


    Seems to me that a sharp instrument would have marred the surfaces, and PCGS sure has a code for that. So, this coin had "divets" in it and still was graded, a 65R no less? That is a "gem" grade; hard to imagine that.
    Gilbert
  • LokiLoki Posts: 897 ✭✭
    Why not impose an insurance policy that is underwritten by a respectable insurer and provide customers with an option to purchase insurance with certain coins they wish to submit? There should be sufficient data within PCGS databanks which could be analyzed to establish rates on premiums. I don't think PCGS should be the only ones footing the bill for getting duped by coin doctors, as doing so will only add to the submission costs for everyone. Treat this like the USPS treats packages; with an option to insure against unforseen circumstances.
  • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
    Loki, I love your Lafayette dollar! show me a bigger picture and if you have it the half dollar that was on it too! mike
    image
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gilbert:

    Seems to be happening more frequently, either that or I am learning what to look for. Unfortunately, it's not rare.

    Loki:

    Seems the best insurance is to have the coin graded by a independent third party that knows what to look for.......sound familiar?? Anybody know of one?? The $30-100 spent on slabbing IS the insurance premium.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.

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