Dealers--If Someone Upgrades One of Your Coins Do You Even Want to Know?
Clankeye
Posts: 3,928 ✭
I got an upgrade on an Isabella once. I told the dealer I got it from and he was not pleased.
When my excitement had died down, I thought about it. Yeah, good for me, but certainly not really great news for him.
So dealers, if one of your customers gets a bump up on a coin they purchased from you... do you even want to hear about it?
When my excitement had died down, I thought about it. Yeah, good for me, but certainly not really great news for him.
So dealers, if one of your customers gets a bump up on a coin they purchased from you... do you even want to hear about it?
Brevity is the soul of wit. --William Shakespeare
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Comments
I like to know if someone scored off me so I can learn but sometimes it makes me feel stupid. I do like to see the people who buy off me do well but not too well.
<< <i>I got an upgrade on an Isabella once. I told the dealer I got it from and he was not pleased. >>
BINGO.
clankeye, a most invaluable thread you have begun here. i was previously slammed for my "ridiculous" statement that plastic companies guarantee only 50% of their grade, they don't guarantee against undergraded coins. it was asserted that you don't lose money on undergraded coins.
so what happened to the dealer? he lost $ because the coin he sold you was undergraded, & had it been graded properly to begin with, he would have been able to charge you the corresponding price.
thank you, thank you, thank you, for an extremely valuable thread. i humbly request that all please learn from this lesson.
K S
And Strat, no I'm sure that no one wants to see someone come in and do a celebration dance in the end-zone. I can picture someone running in and spiking the coin, then doing a moon walk.
It's still amazes me that a coin can jump in price because it's surrounded in plastic. I didn't realize that plastic was so precious....
jom
Obscurum per obscurius
I would always like to know if a coin sold by us is later upgraded. It can be a bit frustrating, especially if we thought the coin should grade higher in the first place, but information like that is still a good thing. And, if it is a retail client doing the upgrading, we have a very happy client. Earlier this year, I bought a PCGS MS63 1918/17-S Standing Liberty Quarter that I thought was undergraded. We sent it back to PCGS for regrade and they did not change the grade. We sold it to a client of ours who resubmitted it and voila - MS64! Needless to say, he was thrilled and we were very happy for him.
One thing that interests me is the manner in which different people let each other know things like that. Some people say it nicely in a matter of fact way, some rub it in your face and others are shy/hesitant about it. I typically make mental notes about things like that!
In this case the plastic was worth an extra $3400. That was the price difference in grades from what I bought it at, and what I sold it at.
Believe me, I'm not gloating about it. The Great Coin God saw fit to take that profit back and then some, once he started paying attention to me again.
Carl
Naw... I just was thinking of all this because I bought a mint set, the quarter graded out 67, and it alone is worth more than I paid for the set. I was just sitting around wondering if the dealer would find that interesting... and then I remembered when I told the one dealer about upgrading the Isabella, and how seriously bummed he was. For the record, I think I was tactful about it, just excited.
Definitely two different money levels here, though. The mint set and the Isabella.
The only time I wouldn't want to know is if I sold a coin to someone who moaned about the coin being overpriced. Normally I wouldn't even sell to someone like that, but if I were in a tight enough spot and needing to turn inventory I might. If someone told me an MS-63 I was offering was really bad for the grade and ground me down on the price, I'd be pissed if he gloated over it coming back as an MS-64. That would only confirm in my mind that he was a lying POS.
On the other hand, if someone bought the same coin from me and was pleased with the coin from the start, I'd be happy for him.
Obscurum per obscurius
so what happened to the dealer? he lost $ because the coin he sold you was undergraded, & had it been graded properly to begin with, he would have been able to charge you the corresponding price.
Wrong. The dealer didn't lose money because he didn't get the higher grade the first time. He maybe didn't maximize his profit, but that is completely different. Very few people/companies maximize their profits, but they still make money.
In fact everyone who ever owned that coin could have made money on it.
I am expecting them in about ten days.
sf
<< <i>we re-submit any upgrade candidates before buying the coins from you, being perfectly happy to buy them at the higher grade if they work. >>
Or the downgrade if they don't? Nice way to cover your butt.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>so what happened to the dealer? he lost $ because the coin he sold you was under graded, & had it been graded properly to begin with, he would have been able to charge you the corresponding price. >>
AWWWWWW I really feel bad for him. You act like the pre third party grading days were the good old days.
Remember that was when a dealer would grade a coin MS65 when selling and MS63 when buying THE EXACT SAME COIN. What a great time it was.
Are you not the one who keeps preaching grade your own coins? The grade on the slab is only someone else’s opinion and what makes it better than your own? You imply here that does not apply to dealers.
Here is what it boils down to;
1. The dealer owned the coin and if he did not agree with the grade he had ample time to resubmit it himself for the upgrade or crack it out and sell it raw and reap the profits. Since he did not he must have agreed with the slab and sold it feeling that was all it was worth.
2. He does not know how to grade and is relying on the grading services himself in which case he should not be a dealer.
3. The coin was properly graded the first time meaning when the buyer sells it after the upgrade someone is going to get screwed. (That should be fine with him because we all know there is not a dealer out there who would want to screw his clients).
4. The dealer thought it might grade higher but did not want to mess with it.
Regardless, how can anyone blame the grading service or anyone else for that matter? The dealer had full control of the coin and based on his own knowledge sold it priced in line with the grade on the slab.
Sounds to me as if the buyer bought the coin and the dealer sold the slab.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>You act like the pre third party grading days were the good old days. >>
no, the good old days were when collectors and dealers were able to THINK for themselves! & i'm not trying to be mean about this either (read on)
<< <i>Remember that was when a dealer would grade a coin MS65 when selling and MS63 when buying THE EXACT SAME COIN. >>
i remember prices being a heckuva lot lower back then too!
<< <i>Are you not the one who keeps preaching grade your own coins? >>
YES! i have continued to say: LEARN TO GRADE FOR YOURSELF.
<< <i>The grade on the slab is only someone else’s opinion and what makes it better than your own? You imply here that does not apply to dealers. >>
bill, i don't understand where your're getting that from! i am in no way saying "let's feel sorry for the dealer". if anything, i am glad the sucker got nailed. why? because any so-called dealer who can't differentiate a $1200 coin from a $4600 coin just might be an idiot & deserves to get burned. you'd hope he wouldn't be in business very long, becuase he offers no value over what any old coin broker would. ie. how much talent does it take to whip out a greysheet & rattle off numbers based on a plastic grade?
bill, you might be interpreting my reponses to mean that i feel sorry for the dealer. nothing could be more wrong! i applaud clankeye for ripping that coin, and love how it supports my contention that plastic grades are guaranteed only 50%.
<< <i>1. The dealer owned the coin and if he did not agree with the grade he had ample time to resubmit it himself for the upgrade or crack it out and sell it raw and reap the profits. >>
exactly right. but because he is clueless grading coins, he relied 100% on the ridiculous notion that plastic companies stand 100% behind their grades, & he got ripped. i love it.
<< <i>2. He does not know how to grade and is relying on the grading services himself in which case he should not be a dealer. >>
agreed
<< <i>3. The coin was properly graded the first time meaning when the buyer sells it after the upgrade someone is going to get screwed. (That should be fine with him because we all know there is not a dealer out there who would want to screw his clients). >>
ok
<< <i>4. The dealer thought it might grade higher but did not want to mess with it. >>
i do think the dealer was a stiff & just doesn't know how to grade coins - FOR HIMSELF
<< <i>Regardless, how can anyone blame the grading service or anyone else for that matter? The dealer had full control of the coin and based on his own knowledge sold it priced in line with the grade on the slab.
Sounds to me as if the buyer bought the coin and the dealer sold the slab. >>
bill, i really get the feeling that you've misinterpreted what side i'm on in this scenario. again, let me emphasize, i have no pity on that dealer at all.
however, my point is to demonstrate to the buying public out there an extremely important, but often ignored FACT, that a plastic company like pcgs, ngc, icg & anacs, stands behind it's grades ONLY 50%. NOT 100% as i have seen in countless ad's and ebay listings. and contrary to what keets believe, & what so many others believe, you lose money on undergraded coins to the same extent as you do on overgraded coins.
i repeat, my point is not to defend dealers at all, but to perform my version of a public service, to let COLLECTORS know that if you want to grow as a coin collector, sooner or later, you simply must learn to grade for yourself. and also as a collector, ESPECIALLY as a newbie, don't fall for the line of BS that says you can't lose on a coin slabed by pcgs because they guarantee their grade. that is baloney. any collector loses out if he sells an undergraded coin for less than what he should have gotten for it if were graded correctly
so, am i trying to say "don't use plastic"? am i saying pcgs, ngc, anacs, icg's grades are worthless? am i saying that you should never buy coins in plastic, or submit coins yourself??? NOT AT ALL what i am saying is, no matter whether you buy slabed or not: for chrissake, be an informed consumer. understand that ALL you get from a plastic company is an OPINION on a grade, and a 50% guarantee. nothing more, no holy mantras, no ten-commandments on the grade, no grades written in mystical runes on a plastic tablet. NOTHING more than an opinion that is as worthless as mine, yours, the pope's and that of the man in the moon. learn to THINK for yourself. you don't need plastic to tell you HOW to think.
one more time, you will get the most out of this hobby if you (1) take the time to LEARN what you like (2) LEARN how to grade it, & (3) be honest with YOURSELF when you consider buying ANY coin & if you follow those 2 steps, you will never, never go wrong, now matter how much (or how little) you pay for a coin.
K S
On the other hand, the minute I looked at the coin, I felt it was a no question shot 65. So how much time does it take to get to know a coins potential? I don't know. From what I read PCGS says about ten seconds. Maybe part of this dealer's obvious disappoint with the upgrade, was just frustration with himself that he didn't really pay it enough attention. All speculation on my part. But, I think it might be true.
Dorkkarl and WWBillman, you both make good points, and debate them in a way that is a credit to you both. I have appreciated the reading so far.
Carl
hey clank
i think the dealers who get upset about a thing like this are really embarrassed that they missed the upgrade and hence the money themselves. i'm not a dealer so i can only speculate from the other side of the fence. with the local guy, i buy raw and have told him of some of the grades i've received, some higher and some lower than what he had assigned. his patt answer is "good." of course his approach is to just move stuff down the line and not look back, a good way to go about it.
al h.
Now a dealer selling a coin will certainly hear from a client if their coin is not a solid or a high end coin for grade. If the client learns at the time of resale or through resubmission that their coin has been overgraded they have an unhappy client. There are different style of dealerships. I will ignore the inept and dishonest ones and focus on two remaining categories. Those that sell bulk goods and those that develop reputations and businesses that depend on long term relationships. The former may care about the global reputation but not be so concerned about the individual sale. The latter wants nearly all clients satisfied. In many cases he/she will charge more for PQs and a knowledgeable client will pay some premium for the quality. I would think that the latter dealer would want to be as efficient as possible but hopes that good things happen to their clients (i.e. some of those high end coins get upwardly valued through regrading and few or none get downgraded). I would also imagine that some dealers on purchase of an excellent coin at good value would be willing to pass it on to a valued client at a price that gives them profit and makes a pleased client. This encourages repeat business and means a successful business.
Now a comment about dealers skills at grading. There is a wide range of skills. There are top end graders , average graders and less skilled. I know this from interactions with dealers in the retail marketplace and from the ANA grading courses where you spend a week with collectors and dealers brushing up on their skills. The dealers present at the course met the range described above. Not all of those that had average skills were beginning dealers , some working at or even owning recognized dealerships were not so skilled. I forgive the average dude for selling a coin that is lesser quality if they know not what they do. I am furious when a knowledgeable and skilled dealer intentionally sells an over graded slabed coin at a high end price. This happens all the time and the worst example occurs when raw coins are sold at auction. I recall a number of years ago when I bought some raw coins from a very high profile auction house based on the catalogue description and pictures. I naively believed ( oh how much I have learned) that this house and its well heeled and highly visible owners would properly grade the coins that they were auctioning. I bought a dozen or so gem and costly coins and submitted them to PCGS; 4-5 came back at the grade catalogued; 5 came back 1 grade lower and 2-3 came back 2 grades lower. Well I was crushed and very, very angry. In fact, I still am after many years. Discusions with the owner of the auction house got me only valuable lessons: 1) don't buy raw coins sight unseen without return guarentees 2) skill in grading is essential if you wish to avoid ( minimize) disappointments; 3) famous dealers are not always the ones that you want to have long term relationships 4) This is a tough hobby for the inexperienced and trusting collector.
So... I would if I were a dealer I would upgrade those coins that I think were obviously undergraded and pass on high quality coins to my clients at a fair price. I would be as happy as my client if a coin sold to them proved to be even better graded than slabbed because I have a happy client and my chances of having a successful business would increase.
<< <i>...just can't seem to understand the difference between losing money and not gaining money. >>
it is a simple issue. if somebody else grades your coins for you at the WRONG lower grade, & you rely on their grading 100% & sell the coins at that WRONG lower grade, you LOSE money. you LOSE value! you LOSE PERIOD!
<< <i>a real simple issue >>
yes, like i just explained it!
<< <i> with a real simple answer that just eludes karl, who isn't even a slab collector to begin with. imagine that, here's a guy who will rant on and on about how foolish it is to collect plastic and then he'll assail the policies of one if the plastic companies. >>
keets, you lost me here. are you trying to point out something wrong with my point?
there's some confusion that i'm directing this at dealers somehow. not the case. if your a collector, & you have $ invested in such high-priced coins as clankeye's isabella, you'd be a total fool not to make absolutely certain your coins are NOT undergraded in the slab, because despite what keets claims, it's a plain & simple fact that you will not get the full value you deserve for them when you sell. like keets points out, i'm not even a plastic collector, & even I know that! which brings me back to trime's point...
trime, is'nt it possible that a couple of the raw coins you bought were undergraded by the plastic servce, so i don't think you should automatically assume that the auction co. was wrong, & the plastic company was right! what do YOU think of the coins (assuming you still have em)?
again, as a coin collector, use the plastic grade for what it is - a second opinion, & nothing more.
K S
Thanks for acknowledgement of my post.
Yes it is possible and even likely that a few of the coins would be upgraded if resubmitted to PCGS. If I had purchased one or even two that were over graded in catalogue relative to PCGS my global condemnation of the auction house would be more questionable in my mind ; the magnitude of the experience was too great to be explained by chance. I did not resubmit at the time ; this was because I was so angry at the the auction house for their responses to my complaints and my ignorance. I carefully documented them; noted their catalogued grade and their slabbed grade and put them aside. I attributed the paper loss in $ to my educational account and vowed to learn from the experience. I have not sold the pieces ( they are not bad specimens, just worth less than I paid for them) and always planned to resubmit them. Since this discussion has stimulated my attention, I will now pull them out and review them again. In order to have as much objectivity as possible, I will also get additional opinions on grade from people whose grading skills I respect. It would be an interesting experience to crack out those that were discrepant and resubmit to PCGS. When I do so I will complete the story.
dorkkarl
OK, i'm gonna approach this as though you are borderline intellectually impaired. please, karl, try to follow along here as i will be making some supposition along with stating fact. here we go.
we will assume that clankeye's dealer purchased the isabella in PCGS MS64 at $800 and resold it hours later to carl for $1200. his net profit was $400 and it follows that he lost nothing. his oppurtunity to challenge the assigned grade has evaporated like the morning dew. this was the end of his participation with that particular coin and whatever happens subsequently is really of no argueable value, here or anywhere, except the dealers head and most probably yours.
now, fast forward slightly and pay attention so i don't lose you because i intend to speculate some in order to show the irrationality of your diatribe. clankeye submits the coin for regrade and it comes back as an MS63. now, according to your logic, he should show up at the dealers shop for some type of a refund.
well, now you're thinking PCGS will cover that under the grade guarantee and you are correct. the guarantee is for loss incurred and doesn't pertain in the least to profit not realized. i hope this makes things clearer for you but i seriously doubt that it will. you are not interested in sense, here or in the majority threads you respond to. i am frankly embarrased for you and ashamed that i have once again gotten sucked into the vaccum which is the essence of your posting. please forgive me. i will join you no more!!!!!!!!
al h.
If somebody sells an obviously undergraded coin either
1) they don't know how to grade or,
2) they didn't care and just needed the money
3) they know and are making enough profit and don;t care if it upgrades
BINGO.
clankeye, a most invaluable thread you have begun here. i was previously slammed for my "ridiculous" statement that plastic companies guarantee only 50% of their grade, they don't guarantee against undergraded coins. it was asserted that you don't lose money on undergraded coins.
so what happened to the dealer? he lost $ because the coin he sold you was undergraded, & had it been graded properly to begin with, he would have been able to charge you the corresponding price.
What if the coin was NOT undergraded before but now it is overgraded??? Wouldn't that mean that every person who buys the coin from now on will be overpaying for it?? I have seen a number of coins (some pointed out on this forum) that have been "maxed out" (overgraded) after being submitted multiple times especially when the price different between grades is very high. A lot depends on how the companies are grading at the times the coin is resubmitted.
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<< <i>so, am i trying to say "don't use plastic"? am i saying pcgs, ngc, anacs, icg's grades are worthless? am i saying that you should never buy coins in plastic, or submit coins yourself??? NOT AT ALL what i am saying is, no matter whether you buy slabed or not: for chrissake, be an informed consumer. understand that ALL you get from a plastic company is an OPINION on a grade, and a 50% guarantee. nothing more, no holy mantras, no ten-commandments on the grade, no grades written in mystical runes on a plastic tablet. NOTHING more than an opinion that is as worthless as mine, yours, the pope's and that of the man in the moon. learn to THINK for yourself. you don't need plastic to tell you HOW to think. >>
Thank you for explaining your position. Maybe you had before and I am a little slow but now I finally understand. All this time I just thought you were anti slab.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>we will assume that clankeye's dealer purchased the isabella in PCGS MS64 at $800 and resold it hours later to carl for $1200. his net profit was $400 and it follows that he lost nothing. >>
stop right there. you already missed the issue by conveniently leaving out the main point. pcgs should have graded it ms65, as proven by a later resubmission. had it been proplery graded in the first place, clankeye would have had to pay the dealer $4600, so the dealer missed the opportunity to make $3800.
please tell me you can understand that, please. i'll state it again:
if you sell a coin at an undergraded price, you lose out on the money you would have received had you sold it at the correctly-graded price
everything else you wrote is just jibberish, because you refuse to accept that "gee, if you sell something for less than it's worth, you LOSE."
<< <i>his oppurtunity to challenge the assigned grade has evaporated like the morning dew. this was the end of his participation with that particular coin and whatever happens subsequently is really of no argueable value >>
and that is exactly the kind of mistaken thinking that lets the slab company off the hook. "oh, you lost $3800 bucks because we undergraded the coin ? well so what, you already sold it!"
<< <i>now, fast forward slightly and pay attention so i don't lose you because i intend to speculate some in order to show the irrationality of your diatribe. >>
keets, can the feeble attempts at satire - you ain't no clankeye
<< <i>clankeye submits the coin for regrade and it comes back as an MS63. now, according to your logic, he should show up at the dealers shop for some type of a refund. >>
hold it right there, mr. keets! where did you come up with this? it has nothing to do w/ the subject! you are now babbling about an overgraded coin! i've been at issue w/ the problem of undergraded coins. is this why your confused?
<< <i>well, now you're thinking PCGS will cover that under the grade guarantee and you are correct. the guarantee is for loss incurred and doesn't pertain in the least to profit not realized. i hope this makes things clearer for you but i seriously doubt that it will. you are not interested in sense, here or in the majority threads you respond to. i am frankly embarrased for you and ashamed that i have once again gotten sucked into the vaccum which is the essence of your posting. please forgive me. i will join you no more!!!!!!!! >>
uh, yeah, like i said, jibberish! again the issue is undergraded coins not being guaranteed.
but since you don't mind selling things for less than what they're worth, what you got for sale?
K S
Joe.
K S
Joe.
My only problem now is this statement;
<< <i>so what happened to the dealer? He lost $ because the coin he sold you was under graded, & had it been graded properly to begin with, he would have been able to charge you the corresponding price. >>
This statement implies the coin was not properly graded before the dealer sold it but is now which completely contradicts your position of the slab grade only being a worthless opinion. How could the coin being given a different worthless opinion by the grading service (in this case a higher grade) translate into the dealer losing money? As long as a coin is in a slab with a grade printed on it and that grade is the standard used for determining profit or loss your whole argument seems a little flawed. If you insist that the slabbed grade is a worthless opinion then no coin transaction would ever have a winner or loser due to the dealer and seller both basing their buy/sell price on their own opinions in which case regardless of the coin being reslabed higher or lower neither the dealer or buyer have gained or lost anything.
No matter how you look at it you cannot factor out the slab opinion. Your whole argument is based on the slabs grade so it must mean something.
Does any of this make any sense?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>my only problem now is this statement
"so what happened to the dealer? He lost $ because the coin he sold you was under graded, & had it been graded properly to begin with, he would have been able to charge you the corresponding price .... This statement implies the coin was not properly graded before the dealer sold it but is now which completely contradicts your position of the slab grade only being a worthless opinion." >>
wwbillman, you are always a man of insight, & you caught on to something extremely critical to the discussion. i made that statement very specifically in that way, to see who might catch on to the fundamental problem w/ the whole "100% reliance on slabs" issue.
every grade given of every coin is an opinion the difference between when you (assuming you yourself are not pcgs or ngc, etc) & me grading a coin & psc (professional slab company) grading a coin is that slabed grades in the marketplace have come to be perceived as being "the right grade", & far too often go unquestioned - especially by newbies, who are allegedly the 1's that slabs protect.
think of how a dealer acts when you ask him the price on a slabed coin. he whips out the ol' greysheet, finds that columns, moves his finger down the column, tells ya "bid is 90, i need 95". magic! no need to look at the actual coin, because the grade must be right, right?
the point is that the dealer of clankeye's lovely isabella knew nothing about the coin's actual grade - becuase he obviously didn't even look at it. what if it actually grades ms-64.5? in that case it's neither a $1200 (ms-64) nor a $4600 (ms-65) coin. maybe it's a $3000 coin! but a brainwashed dealer who only knows "slabed grade, greysheet, slabed grade, greysheet, slabed grade greysheet" obviously cares nothing about the coin's inherent quality itself. clankeye's dealer whiped out his greysheet, found the ms-64 column, & rattled off the bid & ask prices indicated by the plastic. he never looked at the coin!
note that my whole argument assumes that all parties involved put 100% faith in the graded printed on the plastic that their coin is stuck in. ie. the dealer's knowledge & experience has been displaced by the conviction & believe that the plastic is always right. this proven out by the fact that our friend clankeye DID have the knowledge & experience to question the grade.
i hope my response has made some sense.
maybe another way to say it is this:
it is foolish to put 100% faith in a guarantee that is only good 50% of the time.
bounce that 1 around, & let me know what you think
K S
If a coin is undergraded, I will probably not be hurt financially (though I believe dorkkarl's position would be I would be out the possible and or anticipated profits).
It just means I might not make MORE profit, but I won't lose a thing. If you carry that thought too far then every transaction is a losing transaction if you don't sell a coin for its maximum price.
However, if the coin is over graded and recognize as such in the market so that I cannot recoup the value as indicated by the slab grade, then I am injured and the guarantee is there to make me whole by giving me the difference between my COST (not expected value) and the new value based on its corrected grade.
Joe.
Carl
I think I understand your frustration with third party grading. The slab grade blinds and binds us. The coin has become secondary and the hobby is becoming saturated with salesmen, novelty collectors, and opportunists. Because every coin is unique a fixed price sheet can never reflect the true value of any coin. The days of numismatists getting together studying a coin, exchanging observations, knowledge, and opinions to determine a mutually agreed upon fair value are becoming extinct. As a true numismatist it is upsetting and frustrating to sit and watch your hobby turn into a retail outlet store.
Am I right?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>I do like to see the people who buy off me do well but not too well. >>
If somebody buys a coin from me and it upgrades two, three, five points, well, good for them!
If somebody buys a coin from me and it upgrades ten points, my britches begin to itch.
If somebody buys a coin from me and it upgrades more than fifteen points, I'm going to the optometrist. Or taking my grading guides to bed with me every night for for a month.
On the other hand, why be greedy? Ideally, if I buy a nice coin and resell it at a decent profit, I should be pleased, regardless of what the coin may grade or sell for in the future. Any subsequent regradings or resellings after it leaves my hands are none of my business, though I certainly like to hear that a customer is pleased. Of course, human beings being what they are, our motives are not always ideal, now, are they?
Edited to add: I once bought a nice lustrous Barber half from my local dealer that we both pretty much agreed was EF40 with a good shot at 45. He sold it to me right at EF40 money, and I am sure he made a nice profit. I sent the coin off and it came back AU53. I was pleased, so I went by his shop one day around noon and bought a pizza for him and his employees (though his employees had nothing to do with the coin shop part of the business- he runs a TV/VCR repair shop and the coins are a sideline for him.)
i stopped in at the local shop today with a six-pack of IBC root beer and a half gallon of Pierre's vanilla ice cream!!!
al h.
K S