Problem Indians.......

IndianHeadMan

No this is not a post about how Custers' last stand was really a myth.

I was just wanting some people to post some pics of Indian Head Cents that have a problem area. Like AT, couterfiet, evironmental damage, cleaning, etc. Thank you for your time...

BigD5

I'll send a scan of the counterfeit piece I have to someone if they want to post it. I can't post pics on this board with my Mac.

lordmarcovan

Hmm. I have a bunch, that were found with my detector. They range from nearly-perfect high-grade beauties to truly horrifying, pockmarked nasties.

Trouble is, I have no pictures of any of them. I need to work on that.

What sort of info were you seeking?

IndianHeadMan

Not dug coin damage. I've got piles of those. Just some pics of problems that may help keep me from buying a bad coin. Thank you lord of all.

dragon

Indian,

Many 1000's of Indian Head cents have been altered by unscrupulous individuals and have tried to be passed off as full mint red coins. The most common practice I'm aware of is taking a low MS or AU coin and dipping it to simulate mint red color. These coins are then sometimes further treated with chemicals or left out in sunlight to 'mellow' their surfaces. It can sometimes be tricky to differentiate between genuine mint red coins and doctored coins unless you've seen a lot of them and can tell what color and lustre looks right and what doesn't.

Heat treating copper was/is also a common practice and will turn copper green, purple, pink, etc.

Experience and seeing as many original coins as possible is the best way IMO to detect altered coins.

Dragon

lordmarcovan

Ah. I thought you said "environmental damage". One of my nicer dug Injuns is a strong VF 1868, but under magnification it has some "pimples" from environmental damage (very light corrosion). Right next to it, only half an inch deep, I found an EF 1882 that would probably pass as a "problem free" coin.

I've seen plenty of flea-market "red UNC's", some of which are nice sliders- I'm not talking about the usual flea-market whizzed/polished VG's labeled "XF" or "UNC", either, but coins that would fool ya at first glance. Sometimes the color seems to be unnatural, often more pinkish than orangeish. I'll be the first to admit that some of the carefully-retoned pieces Dragon mentioned would fool me, though. Some. He's right- after you look at enough of 'em, you get a gut feeling.

Common red-brown slabbed Indians in AU55-MS62 should be cheap enough, if you can find some in reputable holders to know they're original. Perhaps if you got a few of these to use as benchmarks, you could compare them to raw ones being offered. You could probably find many different degrees of red-brown in these slabbed pieces without spending too much. Sometimes even a full-red coin that "just missed" the RD designation from PCGS, for example. It might be an interesting project, maybe.

If a raw coin looks nice to me and I do not intend to submit it for slabbing, I generally don't object to a little careful "doctoring", as long as the person who doctored it was not attempting to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear", to use an old saying. (Where the heck did that saying come from, anyway? Well, you know what I mean...)

Pushkin

I concur with Dragon's post. The are so many ways of altering copper, and so many variations that only with experience will you gain confidence. I consider myself to be moderately knowledgeable after collecting Indians for many years. With me, in many instances, it now comes down to a "gut feeling" in a lot of cases. There is an unnatural nature to toned copper that is difficult to explain or show well in a picture. I went to a coin show this weekend and saw many, many toned and "played with" Indians, but it would be impossible to take good, revealing pictures of most of them. Ask other collectors you know to help you, go to a few coin shows with someone who knows copper and ask that person to show you "bad Indians", you won't have any problem finding a lot. Then, it won't be ;long before you know quite a bit about what to look for.

Just my opinion, but it takes hands-on experience to get a feel for what is "right" and what is not with copper.

shylock

With some IHs it's tough to tell if they have "problems" in person, let alone in images. The real money is in the key dates where a grade jump or even just a boost in eye appeal can mean thousands of dollars. One example is retoning, resulting in this key jumping from MS64RB to MS65RD. I haven't seen this coin turn up anywhere since, and I've been looking.

Another example is tooling, which can replace spots (so common on IHs) with less obtrusive pinmarks:



The biggest "problem" may be Ebay sellers who grade G coins 67RB!

Pushkin

As usual, Shylock has provided some great advice. Be sure and check out his website for a lot more useful information. As for eBay sellers, its a jungle out there. I've got a 1909-S IHC that was advertised by a dealer with loads of positive feedback, that I have to return. It was advertised as an "Uncirculated RB - mostly brown". The eBay picture wasn't helpful at all. I received a VF-30, cleaned, retoned coin!

Got to go, need to get a bid in, I've been looking for a MS-67 RB 1898 for a long time, and I've only got $450 to spend.

lordmarcovan

Bwahahahaha. That's a great one!

dragon

I wanted to add one more point. In many cases on so-called full red copper coins, the coin will appear to have original mint red color but have a lifeless, flat looking lustre and appearance......this is usually a giveaway (but not 100%) that the piece has been dipped or altered in some way, genuine mint red BU copper coins should normally have full cartwheel type lustre when tilted under a light source. Another giveaway in some cases is to look at the rim, a dipped or chemically treated coin will usually have full "red" rims matching the surfaces whereas most original mint red coins will not.

Dragon

michael

the old trick that foolls many and still does is the mintstate coin that is spotted and red brown to brown and a lighjt paste of baking soda is applied and is carefully applied to the copinm with skill it can leave no trace on the surfaces and most of the time the coins will ,mbe red and the spots if loight disappear but an experienced eye can tell the difference

sincerely michae;l

BIGDAVE

The Infamous indian i was introduced to the board by..

darktone

Here's some enviromental damage on a mint state coin. Mike

shylock

BIGDAVE -- Geez, I forgot about that one. It wasn't the best way to get introduced to the boards, but you were great about it and I'm glad you stuck around. Just to show you how anal I am, I actually saved the reverse image of that coin. It was a perfect example of a poorly rinsed dip job and the aftertoning. The area around the devices were left with a brighter shadow:



Dragon's comment about the "lifeless" look of dipped copper is the first thing to look for. Another thing to consider is the tone. Some blast mint gold IHs exist, but most tone to some degree, and many tone considerably but still retain the "red" look. Below is a deep antiquey red NGC MS65RD I use to own that still retained its natural lustre, compared to a mint gold Ebay 1899 that reflects light, but had its flow lines stripped away.

BIGDAVE

Paul Here Is The Rev , i Stopped the auction on your word back then, and i still listen to every one on the board you live and learn I try not to sell Raw coins anymore...