I've got to say this like it or not
agentjim007
Posts: 6,256 ✭
I know this guy is a board member and I'll probably get blocked for this but it's got to be said. SHILL
Do a search for bidder thunder1972 include completed items. thunder1972 bids on N/R auctions and pumps up the bids for only one seller.
Tell me I'm wrong, I hope I am.
Do a search for bidder thunder1972 include completed items. thunder1972 bids on N/R auctions and pumps up the bids for only one seller.
Tell me I'm wrong, I hope I am.
0
Comments
would you mind trying to explain this more simply i am sorry i just do not get it
and also what is a shill bidder???????
thanks and hope you can answer me i am really really interested in this
this is one of the better posts on here
sincerely michael
Russ, NCNE
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Admittedly, it does look highly suspicious. But, I would say the benefit of the doubt goes to no shill for at least 3 reasons 1) the suspected shill has actually bought a few things (from that seller); 2) he is not bidding on a number of current items being offered by that seller and 3) that seller, from what I know of him (over a long period of time), sells great coins and doesn't need a shill.
Just because it appears the shill has bought a few things means no one else has met the sellers minimum desired price. It actually means it didn't sell.
jrg1152 might be another shill account... this account has also only bid on coins from coingame2000... even bad against thunder once.
Jim,
Have you reported this to e-bay for them to investigate (innnocent until proven guilty)?
Perhaps no one else met the reserves but it apeared to me, upon a quick inspection, that the bidder had actually BOUGHT 4 or 5 items.
And, on your second point "Until you hit the min. there was no need to protect." - I don't see a need to protect AFTER a minimum bid has been entered/reached. I apologize that I can't give this as much time as I would like to, but it is time to spend some quality time with Mrs. Coinguy1. Good night to all. I look forward to catching up tomorrow.
<< <i>but it apeared to me, upon a quick inspection, that the bidder had actually BOUGHT 4 or 5 items. >>
Mark,
What he's saying is that the coin did not make it up to the price the seller wanted for it so that, even though it appears a sale was made, no exchange of monies for coin actually ocurred.
Russ, NCNE
There is no value added to shill bidding when a reserve has not been met. If the reserve is not met, the shill bid cannot bring the honest bidder above the reserve.
On the actual purchases... OK, I paid myself $1,000. Gee, I still have the coin.
Sometimes the shill wins
But then the seller gets his feedback and ebay gets their fees and everybody is happy
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
A shifty person could make it appear that someone is shill bidding on their own options. Just only bid on that person's auctions.... do it with a couple accounts... once in a while, become high bidder then retract your bid....
As I said earlier, it should be investigated, and innocent until proven guilty.
Moreover, it appears that additional suspicious bidders are now emerging, such as Powderpuff2. His bidding patterns are remarkably similar to Thunder's. These guys must really Like Mike Defalco's coins, or ....
Agree with your comment on shill bidding below the reserve. As I looked through more auctions, I saw bids below the reserve and thought about why this might be a valid scam tool.
If you missed it above, jrg1152 also looks like a shill account.
Personally, I don't think there is enough evidence to condone a board member who happens to have some neat coins for sale. Perhaps the bidder just likes this members coins and trusts him as a seller. I tend to purchase higher-end stuff from just a couple of sources who happen to be members myself so if anyone looks at my feedback, I might appear to be a shill to someone not in-tune to my bidding mannerisms.
What's wrong with it is the buyer ends up paying more than they would have with an honest auction, it's against e-bay rules, and it's a form of fraud.
In a fair auction, the bids reflect a willingness to pay, and each bidder is attempting to obtain the item at lowest cost. The shill bid has neither of these characteristics, and therefore tends to distort the results in favor of the seller.
the best thing a buyer can do is just decide the maximum he/she is willing to pay for an item
and try to snipe it...
sniping is the only way to bid on ebay,in my opinion...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I will not give the benefit of the doubt but I will reserve judgement. BUT there are to many nice coins and good sellers on Ebay to understand why one would consistantly limit themselves to just one seller.
coingame2000@aol.com member since Jul 11, 2000.
Total of 81 feedbacks.
All his feedback except for 1 has been gotten since Mar 30, 2002.
He has been a Ebay member for over 2 years but has only been an active seller for the last 8 months.
thunder1972 member since May 21, 2002
In the last 30 days he has bid in 45 auctions and won 7 of them.
All of which were coingame2000@aol.com auctions.
Out of the 7 he has won in the last 30 days no feedback has been given by either party.
Has received 4 feedbacks since being a member and all were from coingame2000@aol.com.
He has given 3 feedbacks since being a member and all were given to coingame2000@aol.com.
jrg1152 member since Oct 08, 2002.
Has only bid in 5 auctions and won 3 of them.
All of which were coingame2000@aol.com auctions.
Has received 3 feedbacks from coingame2000@aol.com and given him 3.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
The seller puts up a coin with the understanding that, once the reserve is met, the coin will be sold to the highest third party bidder.
A person's bid constitutes their acceptance of an offer to buy at the stated price, above the reserve.
When the "shill" bidder -- either the seller or his or her proxy -- comes along, they are in effect "retracting" their offer to sell at that price, and making a new, higher "offer" to sell.
You can't do that without breaching the contract, which was formed when the first bid was made, barring a later acceptance, prior to the auction's end, at a higher price made by another, third-party bidder.
Breaching a contract requires the breaching party to pay consequential damages.
Also, it is deceptive and reflects very poorly on the integrity of the seller -- in all aspects of doing business.
Retracting a bid is not against eBay rules, if done for a proper reason.
I have no idea what, if anything, is going on here. But I don't think shill bidding can be legitimately defended. Would you like it if a dealer decided to raise the price after you agreed to pay the full price written on a 2x2?
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
once upon a time i bought an 1807 draped bust half,a nice coin in vf,for $40...that was the price on its 2x2 holder...
the dealer who sold me the coin KNEW as soon as he pulled it out of the case that it had been mispriced as the capped bust half of the same year...
he didn't try to raise the price...was just hoping i wouldn't buy his coin for $40...
later,this same dealer refused to buy back (i needed some cash),for less than what i paid,some absolutely stunning full-red Indian cents i had purchased from him saying,'it's up to the dealer what he wants to buy and when he wants to buy it.' Nevermind the statement he made that he would buy back my Indians "provided they don't come back to him green."
well,they weren't green...
win a few...lose a few...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I have no idea what, if anything, is going on here. But I don't think shill bidding can be legitimately defended. Would you like it if a dealer decided to raise the price after you agreed to pay the full price written on a 2x2? >>
Nothing is going on. I just wanted to stir up the pot a little.
No, I wouldn't like it if the price was raised after I agreed on a lesser price. However, until I sign a contract to purchase, or exchange money for the item(s), the dealer can do anything he/she pleases as far as I'm concerned. If the price is raised before the deal is legally consumated, I have no recourse to cry foul. Same with shilling. I have not signed a deal to purchase the item being shilled; I merely placed a hidden purchase "offer" on the piece. The offer could be the next increment or a proxy. If the shilling goes over my offer, it is up to me to pursue or decline. There are far more "legal" misdealings by sellers that have much more severe ramifications to bidders currently going on at eBay then shilling, imho.
Oh, just because I take a neutral stance to the practice of shilling does not mean I will practice it in my auctions whenever I decide to sell. I also find it deplorable and detremental to a sellers integrity. That does not mean I find it that much of a problem if another seller take that approach though. I just won't deal with that seller again, that's all. OK That's enough stirring up of the pot for me. It's someone else's turn now.
K S
<< <i>No, I wouldn't like it if the price was raised after I agreed on a lesser price. However, until I sign a contract to purchase, or exchange money for the item(s), the dealer can do anything he/she pleases as far as I'm concerned. If the price is raised before the deal is legally consumated, I have no recourse to cry foul. Same with shilling. I have not signed a deal to purchase the item being shilled; I merely placed a hidden purchase "offer" on the piece. >>
Actually by placing the bid you HAVE signed a contract to purchase the item. The terms of the contract are that you WILL pay a sum based upon the open market price as of the closing time of the auction provided such price does not exceed you maximum preset amount. The shill bidder makes it appear that the open maket price has increased forcing you to pay more under the terms of your contract. But since the shill and the seller are one and the same there is no true movement in the open market price and the extra money is therefor taken by deception.
I would be interested in hearing Mike's perspective on this thread - it could be enlightening. However, if he chooses not to respond, that is his right and different people handle situations like this differently.
However be warned if you click on the contact info they will be sent an email from eBay notifing them that you were snooping and it's against eBay rules to post the contact info anywhere on the net and can get you NARU.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
In answer to your question, I believe that coingame2000 is a dealer by the name of Mike DeFalco (sorry if I have the spelling wrong, Mike!).
I have not spoken with him in years (when I did, I think it was only "hi, how are you?, etc., but I can't remember). I don't really know him at all. But, his reputation has been one of a dealer who has dealt in great coins for a long time.
I have been a practicing lawyer for thirteen (fun-filled) years.
The posting of the auction (or the display of a coin with a price written on the 2x2) IS the offer. Saying "I'll take it!" is the acceptance. Placing the bid on the auction is also the acceptance (albeit with a "condition precedent" that no other third-party bidder appear before the auction concludes). An oral contract is then formed. Barring exception for a legitimate mistake: "Ooops! I forgot to add the zero to the end!" a binding contract must be honored.
Breaching a contract is not "against the law" per se. But it give rise to a cause of action for breach of contract, answerable in damages.
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
Mike DeFalco's (aka Coingame2000) web site.
Russ, NCNE