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Seated Dime help
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
the local dealer has an 1862 seated dime i'd like to ask a few questions about. from the appearance of the fields i would call it a proof, but there is a slight ridge of metal on the outside of the rim on about a third of the obverse. there is also some doubling in the obverse lettering. it has some rub but not really much in the the way of contact marks. the toning looks original, darker towards the rims with blue in the fields. is there any sure way to know if it's proof and would the doubling carry a premium? thanks.
my scanner really sucks---the picture is just too dark to be very useful.
al h.
my scanner really sucks---the picture is just too dark to be very useful.
al h.
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Legend seated dimes offen are seen w/ what appears to be a "doubling" in the legend. As the was it was explained to me by Gerry Fortin was the the legend hub usually on 1st strike was VERY weak so they usually struck the legend twice. This "doubling" carries no premi. Some 1860 dates seated dimes are pretty tough to discren proof vs MS & vise versa. The easiest was is looking at the striking, the denticles, some sort of a "liquid" look to the surfaces, the rims.
link to a 1862 proof dime
As you see in the photo, the 1862 proofs will have a SP(shield position) of 8
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Ray
you beat me to that one. hey sean what's the reference to shield position?
al h.
I just got back on and recieved your PM. Ill just reply here, sorry im so late
Each diagonal line on the shield has a number to it. it goes from 1-12 (ive never seen any past 9, atleast not any i can remember off hand). OK, now to determine shield position (SP) you take very tips of the first "1" in the date and match it up with the # shield it forms a straight line with.
In a minute or two I will be posting a photo to better explain it to you. The file is big because i need you to see some pretty small detail, including the hub doubling
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
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Keets,
Now its a quiz time. On my 1890 listed above, what would you say the Shield Position (SP) is?
One last thing. I didnt know making a diagram like this would be fun (i know it sounds weird, its just kinda neat to be able to showone something.) Anyways, if anyone has any seated dime questions and they just dont understand, I will be more than happy to post a "diagram"
Sean
KK
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
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i see the 1890 as being 6-7. i went back and looked at the bitmap i had of the 1862 and the date is oriented way to the right, approximately at the #8-SP according to your chart. i'll be able to tell better tomorrow when i can look at the coin in hand with a glass. the dealer is certain that it's an unc, has it graded as MS 63 with a price at $185. i see it as having some rub on the right arm, below the left breast and on the right leg with scattered ticks in the lettering but the fields clean. i even pointed out the doubling in united states to him but he said he didn't see anything. got any idea on price? i see it as 60-62. thanks.
al h.
The 1890 falls between 6 & 7, so they call is a 6.5. I forgot to mention that fact
<<i see it as having some rub on the right arm, below the left breast and on the right leg with scattered>>
"rub"? like cabinet friction, rub? or like wear rub? Thats alot of areas to notice a lil "cabinet friction". Whats the dealers guarentee on grades? I have a dealer who will, if I buy raw coins from him ever, give me enough "return time" to send the coins off to the service of my choice. If they come back a lower grade, he returns my money. Its a nice gesture, glad ive never had to use it.
If its indeed a proof in the range of 60-62, then the $185 price tag seems "decent" if its a 60 & "pretty nice" if its a 62. If it turns out to be a MS in the range you mentioned, I purchased a MS62 of this date for $155, already in a pcgs slab.
IMO, $185 is to cheap if he truly believes this coin in a MS63. 1862 is an undervalued date in MS IMO to begin with, espically a decent looking one. I sold Larry (from this board) my 1862 minted from proof dies. Lemme see if I can get him to post a pic of it for ya. Final verdict, if you believe it to be no better than a MS62, id pass on it. Are you just looking for a nice 1862 for date purposes or just a nice one for type?
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
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one final question. am i correct in assuming that only the proof 1862's will have the shield position of 8 and that business strikes will have a different orientation for the date? this guy's kinda stubborn so i just want to be certain when i talk to him. if nothing else i can help him get the coin designated properly.
given your advice on the grade/price i'll most likely pass on the coin since i don't see it as nice as the dealer does. as you said, his price isn't reflecting the grade he states so i think he knows it's lower. i guess we get to dicker some!!!!
al h.
Very Informative.
Thanks. This is the kind of stuff we need around here.
Ken
Some 1862 MS pieces will have a SP of 8. When this happens you have to work on other diagnostics of proof coins. As I mentioned before, the denticles are usually a sure fire way to tell, strike quality, liqidity of the surfaces, rims. Shoot, I really wish I had my damn refrence material with me. Like I said earlier, 1862 is a pretty tricky date because alot of the MS pieces I haver seen have a proof like quality to them. Notice on my 1890 photo I posted the denticles have a more "rounded" look to them.
Link to MS 1862 that shares proof diagnostics
link to proof 1862
You notice both coins share a SP 8, but they also share a pendant falling on the inner left side of the 6(from the second line)
The main diffrent you can see tho is the strike quality of the denticles. The MS has the more rounded look while the proof has that razor square look to the denticles.
Sean
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Bush 2004
Jeb 2008
KK 2016
al h.