Canceling No Reserve Auctions because of low bidding - is it an accepted practice?
BSqr
Posts: 543
I have noticed that some active sellers on eBay tend to post No Reserve auctions but then cancel just before they end. As a bidder I find this totally disappointing and aggravating. I take the time to bid on someone's auction only to have them cancel the dang thing just before it ends. This is especially annoying when I am the high bidder. I was wondering is there an eBay policy regarding this practice? Is it frowned upon by eBay? Can I somehow report sellers who do this on a regular basis (like Ah-Collectibles)?
Please list sellers you know of who do this regularly so I can avoid their auctions. Thanks.
List starter: AH-COLLECTIBLES
Please list sellers you know of who do this regularly so I can avoid their auctions. Thanks.
List starter: AH-COLLECTIBLES
0
Comments
I don't so much mind the practice of yanking a coin if a terrific offer comes along, but how about letting me play too?
Why not the courtesy of an email informing me of the off-line offer and allow me to then either step up or pass?
After all, I'm the one playing by all the rules- placing a top bid and then waiting out the auction- why should I be punished?
To fairly bid and not receive any chance to own the coin because someone who decided to forgo the auction experience isn't right.
Now, if my offer is lower than the off-line "bid" then that's cool. Sell it to the new guy.
Just give me a chance first before killing my bid and killing my opportunity.
peacockcoins
Personally, I understand doing it very rarely or if there was something major that affected bidding (9/11), but those that do it all the time should be suspended. It's stupid since they also miss the snipers.
Russ, NCNE
So what about my point of not using a reserve price? If they have a minimum amount they desire then why not use the reserve instead of canceling? Is there a difference in fees?
Shouldn't, before the auction is withdrawn, I be given a quick opportunity to counter offer the collector who requested the auction be pulled?
Who knows? Maybe my offer will beat (surely, in my case) the one tendered by the off-line 'bidder'?
It wouldn't be only in the interest of fair play, but the Dealer would generate more income and the bidder who played by all the rules comes out the winner too.
peacockcoins
By cancelling the auction it is also avoiding any eBay fees.
Now, I know none of us will cry over that (like eBay isn't making enough as it is-), but is that a rightful business practice? It appears to be a theft of services.
peacockcoins
I can't ever recall ending an auction early for lack of bid, even though I would have liked to. However, I can understand a scared seller doing this.
want a minimum amount for a coin, they should pay the fees to use a reserve or
higher starting price. The sellers that pull this stunt regularly are simply trying to
avoid fees and/or generate more bidding activity.
I would even take it a step further and state that if they put a coin up for a no-reserve
auction, it should be off the market for outside bidders.
The truth is, they are only hurting themselves in the long run. In some cases they
are losing out on competitive sniping that would have earned them a higher price
than the minimum they were looking for anyway. And they are turning off potential
future bidders for their coins. I for one, wouldn't feel like bidding on a coin from
a dealer that had pulled one out from under me in the past.
Ken
A seller can cancel their auction if they choose. A lot of people do wait to bid until the last minute, so the seller could be losing out on potential buyers by ending it early.
Buyers can retract their bids as well, but ebay is getting stricter on that and won't allow it in the last 12 hours to prevent bid shielding -
With 3 user ID's you can place a $5 bid, then a $100 bid and then a $95 bid to set the $100 price. If the price drives away potential buyers and then the $95 and $100 bids are withdrawn, the item goes for $5 because nobody else had time to bid more than that.
They'll kick you out for trying that.
I just cancled an auction today with 3 days left to go. Even though there was only 1 bidder (at a whopping $3.55) and I knew it would go higher of cource, but I looked at the coin and decided it was too nice to sell.
Some sellers place a notice in their ads saying they reserve the right to end an auction early and encourage email offers. I don't see any problem with that, even though eBay loses out of the fees so it might piss them off.
Having both bought and sold on ebay, I find that there are more weasel buyers then there are weasel sellers.
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I have also been asked to end an auction early and have turned down the offer because the coin had bids already. It wouldn't be fair to those bidders. In this case, the guy who made the offer eventually won the coin. Probably would have paid more if I had ended early.
I realize there are those here who make their living selling coins and their situation might be slightly different. Bottom line is - try to make it fair for everyone and in the long run everyone will benefit.
I can understand if the high bidder makes an offer on a coin that is perceived to be "strong" and the seller choses to close the auction early to grab the generous offer of that high bidder. The seller can also choice to leave the bids in place at the time of the closing, so ebay gets a decent final value fee anyway. But, to simply close the auction with 5 minutes to go because the bids are too low strikes a bad chord with me. How is it that a bidder is "legally bound" to honor his bid, as ebay puts it, but the seller is free to toss the "legally bound" bids completely if the price is not high enough? That is hard to follow. If the seller can ignore the bids, shouldn't the bidders be free to cancel the bids whenever they want as well? This may simply be a case of ebay having to swallow a problem because they simply would have no way of enforcing the issue. For example, how could ebay prove whether a coin became "unavailable" because the seller simply sold it elsewhere vs. the dog having just eaten it?
If the shoe fits wear it.
This topic has been discussed here a many times.
If a seller is not willing to sell an item for less than X amount of dollars than that X amount of dollars should be his opening bid or hidden reserve.
To not do that and list an auction with a low opening bid and no reserve and then pull the rug when all does not work out your way is;
1. Ebay fee avoidance
2. Deceptive salesmanship
3. Manipulative salesmanship
I can hear them now,
But it is the sellers coin to do with what he wants
You are right on both counts but that is just BS excuses to try and justify;
1. Ebay fee avoidance
2. Deceptive salesmanship
3. Manipulative salesmanship
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
My personal thought is I don't like reserve auctions - if seller needs certain price they should start it there.
BSqr - what were you bidding on - Don't you know Ah-collectibles is owned by Alan Hager the same man as ACG fame? Have you not been reading other threads? I think they got in trouble awhile ago with shill bidding - would you rather you be bid against by the seller to get to their price?
The best/easiest/fairest thing would be for Ebay to have a rule whereby a no- reserve sale could not be pulled, period. Then, no one would have to worry about excuses, etc.
Recently, we had a no reserve sale on a four figure item which appreciated in price on the Certified Coin Exchange, while still listed. It sold for below site-unsen money. We could have pulled the sale and immediately gotten more money for the coin but chose not to. Would it have been within Ebay rules to pull it? Apparently so. Ethical/fair? Not in my book.
Ethical? I don't think so.
My practice and belief is that a person should ask the minimum they are willing to accept for a coin and let it ride. That's what I do and have no problem selling what I want to sell at enough of a profit to continue doing it (when I have time to deal with it in the first place).
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USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
thanks for that info about AH-Collectibles. Yes I have read other threads but have not seen that eBay seller name mentioned and I did not know who Alan Hager was.
wondercoin and WWBillman are right on IMO
Mark: I support the spirit of your intent, but, even reputable outfits like Heritage or Bowers can pull a coin last minute for one reason or another. As I recall, at the last minute Bowers pulled that "newly discovered unique pattern gold piece" from their last Long Beach sale. So, there may be valid reasons why an auction should be pulled (e.g. what if you discover the coin was stolen, etc).
Having said that, too low a bid is not one of those "good reaasons" to close an ebay auction. Perhaps ebay could modify the reasons for closing an auction and limit it to a specific group of proper reasons which a seller would need to pick from (e.g. coin is counterfeit, coin was shown to be stolen, dog ate it and vet papers to be presented via scan to the world, etc.)
One separate issue. I am not convinced it is unfair for a seller to actually close an auction early to award a then current high bidder with the coin. In other words, if a seller choses to accept a then current high bid and surrender ownership of the coin by cloing an auction early to sell to that high bidder, that appears "different" to me. But, if ebay were to say "NO" that can't happen, I wouldn't feel ebay was being unfair either. Wondercoin.
With that being said I don't make it a practice to end auctions early, when I put something up for sale I want the $$, if I'm scared I'll say I'm scared & use a high starting bid or reserve.
Like WWBillman said "Only Chicken $hit Cheap a$$ sellers practice this type of salesmanship" but I'm not a dealer, I'm just a collector that might not want to sell tomorrow what I want to sell today. I reserve the right to change my mind.
You guys only complain about it when you think you have missed a killer rip.
<< <i>You guys only complain about it when you think you have missed a killer rip >>
not ALWAYS true. I have seen coins come up that do not appear very often or that come up in a hard grade low pop that is hard to find that I would be willing to pay premimum for. I might have a retail bid or better proxy bid in but the lack of other bidders keeps the current high bid low. If the seller had set a reserve or high opening bid I may have just hit it.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Although I can't speak for anyone else here, I am not complaining because I "missed a killer rip". Just because the rules allow it doesn't make it right. Like I said in the original post I wanted to compile a list of sellers that cancel auctions on a regular basis (such as AH-COLLECTIBLES) so that I might avoid their auctions.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
LINK for the "RIP" I saw on ebay
This is a normal $35 retail priced item, so this buyer got a REALLY good price. He was the ONLY bidder! I got "RIPPED" because I was going to bid on the item, but got sidetracked while cooking dinner and didn't get back to the auction till after it closed. Too bad for me.
I will say though, I agree that it is YOUR coin, and you CAN do what you want with it.......BUT, it isn't fair for bidders if you're just going to pull the coin if you don't think the bidding's going your way. Put a realistic reserve price on it and keep the coin for sale!
I agree with Dog 100%.
A seller assumes that he can get a fair price by letting the market set the price. But the same item will sell at a different price at different times. So if seller thinks that an auction won't bring a fair market price at that time for whatever reason - they should be able to cancel it instead of being forced to sell at a loss because only 1 greedy person showed up. How about if your auction was scheduled to end during the last game of the world series?
Plus 90% of bidders don't want to pay a fair price.
Bidders are driven by two emotions - greed and envy - which is why they can work to a sellers advantage.
The greed factor makes people want to get the item for much less than it's worth, but their envy that somebody else will be a little less greedy and get the deal drives them to bid more so they don't get cheated out of their chance to be the person to cheat somebody out of their coin.
Look at the bid history of any no reserve auction. You'll see most people enter a bid and never bid again, so you can tell they never had an intention of paying a fair price.
If a seller has a habit of withdrawing offers then don't do business with them - unless you're envious that someone else will and you'll miss out.
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Either commit to selling the coin or don't. No one pinched your nose and forced you to start the eBay listing, selling your coin, nor did anyone instruct you how to do so ("reserve"? "No reserve"? "Minimum bid"? "None"?).
I also don't think the accurate barometer is always whether it's within the rules or not.
Of course it's within the rules, it would have to be, for the reasons Wondercoin stated above.
eBay business shouldn't always be handled with the attitude of what you can squeak by and get away with.
peacockcoins
This said, there are certain instances I feel you can pull it. For example, if a seller states that this coin is also for sale and listed somewhere else, whether in their store or on their own website, and someone comes in and wants to buy it, then it is okay. But it is "unethical" to just throw 'em up on eBay and cancel auctions because you don't want to sell it now, and don't get as much $ as you thought. Although that is allowed by the rules, it is still a crappy way to do business.
I have had to "take my medicine" several times, as many of you know when I had a NR auction posted. I sold a $2 1/2 Goldie for about $50 less than List
Anyway - my opinion is that if you get into the last 36 hours - you MUST ride it out and just live with the results.
So - if your lookin' for possible great deals on stuff - look at my NO Reserve Auctions
see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
Its4real So - if your lookin' for possible great deals on stuff - look at my NO Reserve Auctions
See - now here's a GOOD seller - everybody should patronize him.
I canceled my first non-mistake auction today. It was just a 1985 25c PR69DC but I looked at it and decided to put it in the "keep" pile. I never thought about canceling a NR auction - I just sit there and watch waiting for the snipers to pick each other off. My worst lost was $244 on a California Gold piece - my best profit was $355. You win some and you lose some.
I just bid on one of your coins. In my greed to cheat you out of it, I bid less than it's worth.
But I'm envious of the high bidder, so I'll be back.
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Here's hoping you won't "cheat me out" of anything
I4R
see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
<< <i>A seller assumes that he can get a fair price by letting the market set the price. But the same item will sell at a different price at different times. So if seller thinks that an auction won't bring a fair market price at that time for whatever reason - because only 1 greedy person showed up >>
What kind of statement is this? This is the kind of defense that is to be expected.
First problem "seller assumes", well we all know what you get when you "assume" something and it is well deserved.
Second problem "they should be able to cancel it instead of being forced to sell at a loss". "Forced"? Who is "forcing" anyone to sell at a loss? It is the seller who sets the minimum bid. If it sells for a loss who's fault is it?
Third problem "because only 1 greedy person showed up". Greedy? If I see a coin I like up for auction and I am the only one to bid on it I am greedy? I could have placed a $400.00 proxy bid but due to no one else being interested in it and the seller starting the bidding at $9.99 the high bid is only $9.99. I stand a chance of winning that coin for $9.99 but was willing to pay $400.00 BUT I am "greedy"?
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A “RIP” ON AN EBAY AUCTION.
If a coin sells for way under value and the dealer loses money of his profit margin is cut who’s fault is it? Why should a bidder feel bad and why would the seller begrudge the bidder? Who listed the coin with a low undervalue opening bid without a reserve?
Answer to all of the above, The SELLER. (The seller was careless and the bidder was lucky)
<< <i>Look at the bid history of any no reserve auction. You'll see most people enter a bid and never bid again, so you can tell they never had an intention of paying a fair price. >>
Because a bidder only bids one time he “never had an intention of paying a fair price”? Again what kind of statement is this? How about he bid truly wanting the coin but the high bid rose so quick it went beyond his budget?
<< <i>Bidders are driven by two emotions - greed and envy - which is why they can work to a sellers advantage. If a seller has a habit of withdrawing offers then don't do business with them - unless you're envious that someone else will and you'll miss out. >>
If this is your opinion of collectors who shop on Ebay please give me your seller name so I never unknowingly do business with you.
As far as that excuse of “Its my coin”, you are 100% correct it is “your coin”. And as such you have a choices when it comes to listing it in a Ebay auction when you the owner have decided to sell it.
1. High opening bid to protect your investment.
2. Reserve auction to protect you investment.
3. Low opening bid with no reserve and let the current Ebay market determine is value on the given day your auction ends.
Its your coin and your choice. If you (the owner) CHOOSE #3 and do not follow through with the auction you are a person with NO integrity.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
You've got to be kidding.
You said, "they should be able to cancel it instead of being forced to sell at a loss because only 1 greedy person showed up"
So the fact that only one person bid makes that bidder greedy? I think you might have some issues here.
You said, "Bidders are driven by two emotions - greed and envy - which is why they can work to a sellers advantage.".
You also said, "The greed factor makes people want to get the item for much less than it's worth, but their envy that somebody else will be a little less greedy and get the deal drives them to bid more so they don't get cheated out of their chance to be the person to cheat somebody out of their coin.".
I have never bought a coin from someone with the goal of cheating them out of the coin. Also, how can one be cheated if one agrees to sell?
Sure, everyone likes a good deal but saying all buyers are driven by greed and envy is a falsehood.
FYI - some people, including myself, will bid early as a way of tracking auctions via the "My eBay" page. When the end of an auction nears I will check it out. If the price is too high for me then that's the end of that. Ergo, one bid.
Call a spade a spade. Under the terms of an auction what he/she did was wrong and Ebay faciliated it. But it's not illegal so you have to live with it. Ebay presents their site as an 'auction' site but in reality it's a combination buy/sell board and auction site depending on how the seller selects to present the item and abide by the rules. The only thing that will change this is pressure from Ebay's users. Otherwise the practice will continue and all buyers must be willing to live with it.
But the biggest issue I have is when the seller writes in the title and in the description that this is a NO RESERVE auction and then cancels it. What pray tell then is the meaning of a NO RESERVE auction.
I agree with what Mark wrote earlier and I'm going to make it a little more specific: If a seller writes in his auction that it is a NO RESERVE auction, then he/she should not be allowed to cancel it.
IMHO. Joe,
In basic contract law there must be an offer and an acceptance and a meeting of the minds.
When a person lists on ebay that is the offer and the terms are the highest bidder at a specified time will purchase the item. Since no contract exists the offer can be withdrawn at any time prior.
Let me distinguish between the two kinds of sellers: casual and for profit.
Let’s say you want to sell your house. You advertise for a week about the big auction on Saturday and you make sure everybody knows about it. You’re all ready on the big day and a hurricane hits. One guy shows up and bids $1. Did the conditions that day bring a fair market price that you anticipated it would when you made the offer? Should you be forced to sell it to him?
If you started buying houses and selling them at auction for profit, and people showed up on a sunny days and you canceled auctions because you couldn’t make a profit, then you shouldn’t be in the business of selling houses and nobody will come on Saturdays anymore.
If you don’t understand the emotions of greed, envy and fear than I hope you have your money safe in a bank because you’d be eaten alive in the financial markets.
Greed is a good thing. When given the choice, people will act in their own best interest. In a no reserve auction setting, greed, envy and fear will cause rational people to act irrationally.
I feel sorry for dealers who are trying to make a living selling coins. As with any retailer they have to deal with the public, which is just plain annoying. They’re doing it to put food on the table so they can’t afford to take a couple hundred loss.
The best advice I got was from a PCGS dealer who bought a lot of 20 modern slabs from me in a no reserve auction way below cost. He asked how I could make any money doing this and I asked him what he wanted them for. I just wanted to get rid of them without having to deal with 20 different chuckleheads and he said he donates them to the Boy Scouts and writes them off at full value.
So, I’ve got about 150 more coins left I want to sell so what I don’t move on eBay I’ll be donating at the end of the year.
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<< <i>When a person lists on ebay that is the offer and the terms are the highest bidder at a specified time will purchase the item. Since no contract exists the offer can be withdrawn at any time prior. >>
NO contract? Read Ebays defination of a bid. When a buyer places a bid he enters into a legal binding contract to purchase the item.
So we have an offer from the seller and once a bidder bids on the item a contract is entered into to purchase the item offered.
<< <i>Let’s say you want to sell your house. You advertise for a week about the big auction on Saturday and you make sure everybody knows about it. You’re all ready on the big day and a hurricane hits. One guy shows up and bids $1. Did the conditions that day bring a fair market price that you anticipated it would when you made the offer? Should you be forced to sell it to him? >>
Give me a break. In that instance the auction could be cancelled prior to the start. You keep harping on this "forced" thing. AGAIN I SAY no one forces a seller to do anything. The seller sets the terms of the auction. No one is holding a gun to the sellers head "Forcing" him to offer a $400.00 coin for sale in auction without a reserve and a $0.99 opening bid.
<< <i>I feel sorry for dealers who are trying to make a living selling coins. As with any retailer they have to deal with the public, which is just plain annoying. They’re doing it to put food on the table so they can’t afford to take a couple hundred loss. >>
Feel sorry for them? They are either stupid, a gambler, confidant in their assessment of the market if they make the decision to NOT protect their investment expecially when the proceeds are needed to feed their family. Feel sorry for them when they had seller tools available to prevent it from happening, never.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
NO contract? Read Ebays defination of a bid. When a buyer places a bid he enters into a legal binding contract to purchase the item.
You are confusing a bid with when you use the BuyItNow feature.
When you bid it says ...
Confirm that your bid is correct and then place your bid.
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<< <i>Q. If I place a bid, how am I obligated to the seller?
A. If you place a bid at or above the minimum bid amount (or in a reserve auction, at or above the reserve amount), and your bid is the high bid at the end of the auction, you are obligated to complete the transaction with the seller >>
<< <i>Once you make and confirm a bid, you can't withdraw it unless:
1. The seller materially changes the description of the item after your bid.
2. The amount of your bid was clearly a typographical error.
3. Other exceptional circumstances; however, you can't back out because you decided to bid on another item, decided you couldn't really afford it, or changed your mind. >>
So let me understand this.
If I bid on an auction I cannot retract my bid if I change my mind.
If I am not out bid I am obligated to complete the transaction.
Sounds like I entered into a contract.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
BSqr-
There is "Zeno's Paradox" that says Hercules can never run a mile, because first he has to run a half mile, and before he can do that he has to run a 1/4 mile, and on into infinity.
So with bidding a $500 coin first has to be a $495 coin and before that a $490 coin etc...so people who bid at the start are bidding what they would pay and until somebody who comes along willing to pay more.
There is a guy "showad" who bids on NR auctions and his bid/watch page must be a mile long. He'll snipe at the close if the price is right. I've only sold to him twice so that's good because if he's buying that means there's more money to be made. It takes more than 1 person to make a NR auction take off and if nobody else shows up then they can get a good price. If you get at least two hardheads fighting over it that's the best for the seller.
But somebody who bids $41.32 on an ounce of gold. What are they thinking? That they'll beat out the guy who bids $41
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Bill,
I would read that as you are obligated under the terms of the ebay user agreement or even you are morally obligated to complete the transaction...
But because the time element is a condition of the offer, it's not an enforcable agreement because the offer could be withdrawn. Before contracts are signed, there is a lot neogotiating before hand and either party can walk away before a contract is made.
You can retract your bid if you change your mind - people retract bids all the time. Too many retractions and they'll ban you. If sellers withdraw too many auctions, they'll get banned too.
If either party backs out of the deal it screws up the other party. I think there are far more bid retractions then there are sellers ending auctions early because they don't like the bid amount. I don't how you can tell what an auction will close at (unless you look at the counter and guess from there) because you don't know who's watching it and what price they will be willing to pay when the time comes.
I've had coins disappear from my watch list that I would have liked to bid on (usually from sellers who sollict offers) and it's annoying and I've withdrawn bids that I'm sure annoyed the seller (I've been banned from one seller for withdrawing a bid).
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First, the supposed paradox. If I can divide up a finite distance into an infinite number of small distances, then adding all those distances together should just give me back the finite distance I started with.
As for showad, I know of whom you speak. I have bought a coin or maybe even two from him.
You said, "But somebody who bids $41.32 on an ounce of gold. What are they thinking? That they'll beat out the guy who bids $41"
Perhaps a more appropriate question is, "If the seller wants more than $41 for his ounce of gold then why has he set such a low starting price?" - just a thought
On bid retractions - I've bought about 75 items on eBay and participated in many, many more. Not once have I retracted a bid. During this same period I have had around a dozen auctions canceled that I had bid in. I don't even know how to retract a bid. Is my experience the exception or the rule?
Zeno's paradox says motion isn't possible. But it doesn't take into account that multiple events can occur at the same time (you can move 1/8" and 1/4" at the same time)
Zeno's Paradox
Selling an ounce of gold is like selling a $10 bill. Anybody would buy one for a $1, but getting $11 for it isn't as easy.
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Relayer, I think you are off on a tangent. The issue for me is when you state in the auction that it is a NO RESERVE auction and then you cancel it before it ends the seller has LIED.
Now, we all know that some sellers lie in their auctions, but surely you are not suggesting that that is OK.
In this hobby certain words have certain meanings and everyone should be held accountable to those meanings. The seller lied to get me to his door when he had no intention of having a real NO RESERVE auction. I am sorry, but that is wrong.
IMHO. Joe.
I wasn't paying attention when I bid and then I later looked at the bid history...
I had just outbid Lord Marcovan
I retracted that bid out of courtesy - now I pay more attention
see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
I would agree that canceling a NR auction is a weasel thing to do, but bidding on an auction and not paying is also a weasel thing and that is a lot more prevelent.
Also I don't agree with the original premise that started this thread. How do you know why the auction was canceled. "The bidding isn't high enough" is not one of the choices when you cancel an auction. These are the choices:
The item is no longer available for sale.
There was an error in the minimum bid or Reserve amount.
There was an error in the listing.
The item was lost or broken.
If you offer a $1000 coin and see the hit count is 3 and there is 1 bidder at $1 that maybe a good indication that today is not a good day to sell. If the coin sold at that price your acutal damage is a loss for $999. If the auction is canceled, the bidder doesn't get to buy a $1000 coin for a $1 but their actual loss is $0.
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However, if the seller does not want to take that chance then he can set a reserve or choose a higher starting price, but I don't think he is entitled to state NO RESERVE and then cancel because he doesn't like the bidding (of course, this assumes the reason for cancelling is the bidding)
Again, the seller should not be allowed to state No RESERVE if that is not his honest intention.
Joe.
Joe,
That's true if the seller doesn't intend to honor the NR offer they shouldn't list it that way. The Zeno reference is just pointing out the bid prices move linearly. A bid has to be at $10 before it goes to $15, etc. and so the seller needs those bidders to participate.
The sellers are in business to make a profit. If they can't they go out of business.
Back in the 80's the sugar market was at an all time low of about 2 cents a lb. Instead of taking their product to market, the producers dumped it instead of selling it a loss. That reduced the supply and prices rose again.
It's the same thing in the coin market. If it's not profitable to deal in coins, then the dealers will disappear. Then collectors will have to go buy their own bags and rolls and search them for gems.
I also think if you are going to spend money on coins, then you should be spending some with a local dealer.
So if you want your sugar, you've got to pay a fair price or there won't be any sugar for sale. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
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