I need help from the large cent collectors

jdimmick

All you large cent collectors, I need Help.

On the way back from one of my plants, I stopped into a Antique center, which sells cosignment type stuff. There is a gentleman who has some coins in his case. (he is not a dealer, but an old time collector from years back) He has a lot of nice original bust halves, seated dollars, and others priced very fair.

There is however, amongst a few large cents a 1794 plain edge, the coin looks extremely nice for the grade that he has assigned, and priced really great if okay. The coin is at least an vf-30 or higher, and still retains the original light brown planchet color. There a few minor marks around the rim and so forth, but appear to be due to the planchet itself prior to striking. The coin looks so good in fact, that it scars me. The thing is if I can pick up this coin for what it is marked, I will be way ahead.

Can anyone give me some tips on what to look for and diagnostics to assure that the coin is a geniune piece, and not an electrocast or some sort of copy. I am not that experienced in early copper, but I would sure like to pick this piece up if a good one.??? I am not used to seing older copper of 1700's looking that original. It looks genuine to me and has not been cleaned.

The problem is, due to it being a consignment antique center, there would be no return(As is).The cosigner is not even present during the transaction.


Jim D

ANACONDA

Have you asked the seller if he would give a return privilege? You never know unless you ask. You might even offer to give him an extra $20 for the privilege.

I would stay away from expensive (as defined by your budget) raw coins sold by antique dealers, especially if you're just now getting into collecting early coppers.

Remember, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. It almost always is.

Some of the nicest dealers I've ever met will bury you in coins, not necessarily on purpose but simply becasue they're passing on a mistake.

By the way, there are at least 100 different places to buy accurately graded certified early copper.

At a bare minimum, get yourself a copy of the ANA Grading Guide and a greysheet or Trends price guide (out of Coin World).

Describing surfaces is tricky without having exemplars to compare and show.

Copper is not one of the easiest series to grade.

adrian

davefperry

According to Don Taxay in 'Counterfeit, Mis-Struck, and Unnofficial U.S. Coins' there was a British Antiquarian named Robert Cooper Ready who with his sons made excellent electrotype copies of U.S. coins from 1792 until 1804. Electrotype copies have obverse and reverse impressions taken in wax and then coated with copper or graphite. The metal impressions are immersed in an electrolytic solution to produce 2 copper or silver shells. These are then trimmed, filled with lead and joined together.
They made 22,000 copies of U.S. and English coins. They are very good copies sice they're individually made and only once removed from the original. To keep them from being sold as genuine they stamped the initials R, RR, or MB on the edge of each coin. The trouble was that a lot of people filed off the initials and passed them off as genuine.
Examine the edge for flat spots or traces of filing. Rotate the coin slowly in a good light. Check the surface, too. Some electrotypes show a concave or wavy surface. Check the high points of the surface for traces of the filler metal starting to wear through. Weighing and ringing are good but not foolproof. As always, take a good loupe and check for seams.

Coin Finder

If you can take a picture of it with a digital camera and post it here that would enough. Look up the varity if possible in the new Breen Book. 1794 has a ton of varities, some rare some not so rare. Some even come on nice planchetts as the norm.

Eac graders are tough, in short any noticable wear takes it out of EF-45 fast.

Tbig

Placid

A seam along the edge for cast copy's.

dorkkarl

hey dude, where is the coin? maybe i can go by an.... ahem.... check it out for ya....

K S

jdimmick

Thanks for the input on the early copper, I will be heading back up that way next week, with some books, good glass or two.

I want to look at it real hard again.


jim

Conder101

I'm surprised no one has said anything about this coin having a plain edge. All 1794 cents were lettered edge pieces so a true plain edge piece would be a real coup. I am not aware of any contemporary electrotypes. I do seem to remember that there are some counterfit 1794 S-72 out there. One thing to watch for on counterfeit large cents is a very sharp square edge. Many of the counterfeits have been struck in high pressure presses with close collars which gives them an edge like a proof coin. Check the top of the wreath and the cap to make sure the word COPY hasn't been tooled off of a GMM piece. (Another place to look for a GMM piece is arond the denticles on the reverse. I believe the only 1794 cent that GMM has done is the starred reverse.) Check the edge carefully for tooling that may have been used to remove the edge lettering.