PCGS to grade Roosevelts full bands?
truthteller
Posts: 1,240 ✭✭
I heard from two reliable sources that PCGS might be grading Roosevelts with full bands in the near future. Anyone hear this?
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jom
A descriptive pic would be very helpful as would any other information as the Roosevelt dimes have my attention right now.
Thanks
Mike
Look just below the flame and you will see two horizontal lines (the bands). In a weak strike, they will appear to be fused as one, however, in the case of a strong strike, they will be compltely split- thus each band will be fully struck and earn the FB designation.
Jeremy, back to history...
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Wayne
Wayne
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There is a viewable description in Collection #2. (listed as #5 all-time)
I raised the issue of PCGS considering a "FULL STRIKE" designation on Liberty Nickels recently. Most serious collectors of Liberty nickels opposed the idea. They pointed out that fully struck stars and left reverse corn are only a portion of the coin and it makes no sesne to specially designate the Lib nickel based upon a couple areas of good strike on the overall coin. The same applies for Roosies. You might be elavating some high grade Roosies to potentially great rarities if you adopted a FB designation on them, just like what happened to some Mercuries, Jeffersons, SLQ's etc.
Yes, one day, I would not be surprised to see the grading companies adopt a FB designation for Roosies, but I would be very surprised to see PCGS be the first company. PCGS has taken a very conservative approach to adding new coins/designations to its PCGS Pop Report. In the meantime, if you like Roosies, take some time and study the reverse strikes - you will be very surprised in what you discover.
is greatly diminished, but when it's missing due to poor strike or worn dies
there can be very little loss of price. Personnally, I prefer a coin missing de-
tail to nice honest wear more than the loss being caused by lack of the proper
concern by the mint or one of it's employees. Many of the moderns are so poorly
struck that they have less detail than a VG! To me a nice well struck VG just
looks better than the unc which was struck through grease with worn out dies
which were poorly alligned.
It only makes sense to define strike by a design element when that element is
typically the last thing to be struck-up or is critical to the appreciation of the de-
sign. The degree to which this applies to the roosy is open to debate and varies
over the years. There most assuredly are some dates that split bands are difficult
to find.
Obscurum per obscurius
If a coin isn't fully struck, why should it merit a MS-68 or 69 grade? Does the grade only consider the marks on the coin?
If PCGS does a designation that says "FULL STRIKE" then I'm all for it. In fact, they should have that for EVERY coin series. Otherwise, PCGS is just fueling another phoney market based on pop reports so as to get more resubmissions.
jom
<< <i>A descriptive pic would be very helpful as would any other information as the Roosevelt dimes have my attention right now. >>
Mike,
If I recall correctly, you're collecting the proof coins? If so, the designation wouldn't be an issue for yours since the designation is only used in business strikes.
Russ, NCNE
Full Head Standing Liberty Quarters are often not completely struck. Take a look at many pieces and you will see that two of the rivets on the shield are poorly struck, and many times, not even struck at all. However, many collectors pay great premiums for that FH label, while the coin is NOT completely struck.
A novice collector may see a dime designated Full Bands, and pay a premium for it when a different portion of the strike might be lacking, and might not command as much of a premium to an expert in the series.
New credo?
"Buy the coin, the whole coin, and nothing but the coin"
<< <i>designations are made to separate a fully struck coin from one without a full strike. >>
As Keith pointed out this most certainly isn't true. Therefore a "Full Strike" designation would be the best way to go. What you call it is irrelevant but that is how the coin should be evaluation, IMO.
As far as an artificial market is concerned: Of course, PCGS would NEEEEEVER do such a thing to create sales. Nope...never. I take back what I said.
jom
<< <i><< designations are made to separate a fully struck coin from one without a full strike. >> >>
I probably should have said "I would assume that these designations are made..." That more clearly shows my thoughts. My apologies.
Now, I would assume that there are more market influences, than just that of pcgs, when decisions like a new designation, are made.
NGC tried it with the "W" (White) and "T" (Toned) debacle. No one really wanted it- NGC hyped it, without success and have subsequently dropped it.
Full Torch for the Roosevelts? Why not? They are legitimate scarcities and if the collector base is driven into collecting these it'll be a success.
If not?
-Not so much so and it'll go the way of slabbed signed stated quarters. Either way it'll be the COLLECTOR, as always, that will make that final determination. As it should be.
peacockcoins
I used to collect Roosies; have a set of 1946-64 MS 63-6 silver dimes raw. I paid more att'n to the torch rather than the bands.
IMO, for any series, I'd set a standard so if, say, a coin was not fully struck, it could not grade, higher than, say, MS 66. The grading services used to do this with 19th century type.
Re Liberty Nickels, Wondercoin is correct re strike is not a grade limiting factor; among uncirculated coins of this series, it's all eye appeal.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
But as has been mentioned, the problem with these designations in general is that it focuses too much on one tiny part of the coin. The generic "full strike" designation would be better, and might have some use for people buying sight-unseen. But that's not going to change any time soon for the other series.
I've also found PCGS to be extremely conservative in creating new attributions. Whether that's due to noble intent or the fact that they make 10x the money spending their time grading state quarters, I don't know.
But if they designate Roosey bands before the 1972 Ike types somebody's going to get hurt!
peacockcoins
die lacked the design detail. If this is a detail which is lacking on most of the issue
then it may well be a good grading criterion. It seems that the bands of the roosy
do qualify in this regard for at least some of the dates.
When I started collecting the silver Roosies seriously in the 1980's, it quickly became clear to me that the reverse lower bands were often times weak and, on some dates, hardly ever struck full, especially in gem+ grade. By the time I registered my #1 MS Silver Roosie set in the 1999 Registry, I had seen an enormous amount of specimens to draw my conclusions and my set was partially filled with "FB" examples in top grade. When Registrycoin acquired my silver dime set in 2000 to merge into his then #3 set to create an even stronger #1 set, we both set out to try to complete the collection in "pop top" PCGS with FULL BANDS. Another (2) full years of searching intensely yielded a number of additional fine coins and the collection was improved even more. The set changed hands again recently and I continue to search for certain dates in finest known PCGS grade with "FB" in the hopes of one day assembling a complete silver Roosie collection in PCGS-MS67/68 "FB".
A few dates remain to complete the collection in PCGS-MS67/68 "FB". They have been undiscovered despite a dozen years of searching for them. Are there certain few coins in the silver Roosie series which might become "rarities" in high grade "FB" in the years ahead similar to coins such as the 1953(s) Franklin in gem grades of FBL or the 1954(s) Jefferson in gem FS? I personally think so. Is it possible a Roosie dime can get the same "FB" designation as a Mercury Dime in the years ahead? I personally think so. Is it likely collectors will accept "FB" on a Roosie as a legitimate designation, as compared to "full Roosevelt hair" or something else? I think so. Is it possible "FB" never gets recognized as a valid designation? I think so. Would I regret having spent a single moment searching these dimes for "FB" over the decades if the Roosies never get awarded their own designation. Heck no.
Do I personally believe the Roosie Dime deserves an "FB" designation if you assume that coins such as Jeffersons, SLQ's, Mercuries and Franklins "deserve" their designation - of course. It is only logical. Would I argue with someone who honestly believes the Roosie dime does not deserve a designation and the other coins also do not deserve a designation? Nope. Now, if anyone out there would like to build a case as to why an SLQ quarter, a Jefferson Nickel, a Franklin Half Dollar and a Mercury Dime each deserves a designation, but the Roosie does not - good luck trying to make any sense with that argument!!
From Airplanenut's comment above: (referring to the reverse)
<< <i>Look just below the flame and you will see two horizontal lines (the bands). In a weak strike, they will appear to be fused as one, however, in the case of a strong strike, they will be compltely split- thus each band will be fully struck and earn the FB designation. >>
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is coming for the Roosies. No doubt about it. More money in grading fees. And there will be other series to follow. Full strike makes sense to me but that would not generate enough income for PCGS or ANACS. Picking one single feature will narrow down the field but not make it so exclusive as to be impossible to find. Sort of like finding MS65 bust dollars that look like MS 65 Barber halves. Since they don't exist, the standard had to be diluted to allow enough MS coins to go around. There is no demand if there is no supply.
roadrunner
jom