Simply too Much!
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is an ebay auction description I have a problem with:
1876 20 cent piece
I know that coin - it's from the Vermeule collection where it sold for under $15,000 to a roomful of expert graders. That price realized means that only one dealer thought the coin was better than a 66. After grading, it sat in the purchaser's inventory for a year.
I was offered the coin at $40,000 and a counter offer was encouraged. I declined because there is a very noticeable patch of hairlines or finishing lines in the right obverse field under the toning. If hairlines, the coin is a 65/66 (based on eye appeal), if finishing lines it's a 67 max. In either instance, a purchaser at that level is going to be buried for their lifetime and perhaps their grandchildren's lifetime. I figured the coin at $25,000 max.
If someone is looking for as large a markup as they are on that coin, they should at least reveal the blemish in the right obverse field rather than make it sound as if the coin is perfect!!!!!!!!!
As soon as a seller starts hyping prices ($250,000 in the future for this coin), my advice is to run the other way as fast as possible.
1876 20 cent piece
I know that coin - it's from the Vermeule collection where it sold for under $15,000 to a roomful of expert graders. That price realized means that only one dealer thought the coin was better than a 66. After grading, it sat in the purchaser's inventory for a year.
I was offered the coin at $40,000 and a counter offer was encouraged. I declined because there is a very noticeable patch of hairlines or finishing lines in the right obverse field under the toning. If hairlines, the coin is a 65/66 (based on eye appeal), if finishing lines it's a 67 max. In either instance, a purchaser at that level is going to be buried for their lifetime and perhaps their grandchildren's lifetime. I figured the coin at $25,000 max.
If someone is looking for as large a markup as they are on that coin, they should at least reveal the blemish in the right obverse field rather than make it sound as if the coin is perfect!!!!!!!!!
As soon as a seller starts hyping prices ($250,000 in the future for this coin), my advice is to run the other way as fast as possible.
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Comments
Hmmm... in raw form it was thought PR-66 max and worth $15,000, but in a slab as an PR-68 it's now worth $40,000?! It's certainly an attractive coin, but the price for the plastic is a bit steep. It's interesting that the current PR-67 price level is right around TDN's estimate of value. Maybe they should reslab it PR-67 as a compromise.
Obscurum per obscurius
I wonder if Adrian would try to sell waterfront property in AZ to his own mom? He could say that in the future, when CA drifts into the ocean, AZ property prices will sky-rocket! Of course, by then, he'll be selling choice property orbiting Neptune!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>they should at least reveal the blemish in the right obverse field rather than make it sound as if the coin is perfect!!!!!!!!! >>
Come, now, Anaconda would never practice deception by omission.
Russ, NCNE
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
The eye appeal of the coin is awesome....but the right obverse field makes it a problem coin. It certainly is not the flawless investment piece being presented in his writeup.
BTW - that's always my idiot check on high grade coins: view the coin in direct sunlight and you'll be amazed at how many flaws are revealed!
Personally, I am DARN glad I didn't park $100,000 in a PR67 20 cent piece in 1989, especially for a 13 year long-term investment from 1989 to 2002... (Though, when you come right down to it, I sure WISH I was able to consider parking $100,000 in a coin!!)
Mark
adrian, come back to us buddy. we promise to be gentle!!!
al h.
i noticed the area you mentioned when i first saw the scan but assumed it was just an area where the tone had been rubbed. then i read your post stating it's actually hairlines. bummer!!!!
i don't knock adrian for his choice of coins----he lists beautiful items, consistently. he just seems to know they can't sell themselves and hence the embellishment. i'm certain if this coin were in a lower graded holder or tagged with a lower price as graded, you would be here raving about it, and rightfully so. heck, i guess you'd already own it!!!
al h.
BTW, your statements are actionable. Do you know what this means? Does your Mommy and Daddy know you are writing these things on their computer?
Oh. I'm sorry. I drove under a bridge and started channeling. My apologies.
Is this another case of market grade gone wild (i.e. the jump from "PF-66 at best" raw to PF-68 due to nice eye-appeal)? A bump between AU-58 and MS-62 may be understandable, but I thought grade bumps between coins at the high end of the spectrum had to have substantial reasons.
Obscurum per obscurius
I didn't even think that the toning was that attractive, but it was natural and I guess the grader was more impressed than I was with it.
Might the graders have not used a glass to help grade the coin? I thought most coins were graded by eye (and in about 8 seconds). Of course, for a PR68 one might hope that a glass was used, but if it wasn't, then it's easy to understand why you saw the spots and the graders did not. So, do you think that the graders missed the spots because they didn't use a glass?
Mark
I see the hairlines you're talking about and since you've seen it what's that that looks like an X in the right obv field?
And what's that in the left obv field that looks like hairlines?
I know it doesn't affect the grade but what's that stuff that looks like fingerprints by stars left 5,6,7 & by the date?
What's that huge slash on Liberty's belly?
What's that on the holder that looks like it says Proof 68?
Russ, NCNE
NGC is known for sometimes giving out an extra point on an already high grade piece that has very pretty color, regardless of denomination, so if in fact this piece was a nice 67, it would not surprise me to see NGC give it a 68 for the wonderful color and eye appeal.
As far as what a coin sold for at auction previously or what people thought it would grade by NGC or PCGS, that makes no difference IMO as to what it's worth now, or what holder it's in now or the current asking price, both higher OR lower. It is commonplace for a coin to sell both certified or raw at auction and then be offered at a later date for multiples of the previous selling price at auction, either because the coin got bumped, or for various other reasons.
In any case, regardless of the grade on the holder or the asking price, that sure is one incredibly nice piece IMO and would be an incredible find for a true 20 piece specialist or type collector.
Dragon
<< <i>I think once again some people here are drawing conclusions and rendering opinions on a coin they haven't seen. >>
Dragon,
TDN's initial post seems to indicate that he has, indeed, seen the coin - before it was even holdered.
Russ, NCNE
I understand that, but TDN said himself he wasn't sure if the lines on the coin were post production hairlines or something mint related, also I was referring to others here that wouldn't know the difference between a PR67 or a PR68 20 cent piece if their life depended on it, and yet are criticizing a coin they have never seen.
Dragon
I collect proof twenty cent pieces and I really wanted to buy the coin. I had it on approval for three days and closely examined the coin many, many times. I can not categorically state whether the lines are hairlines or die finish lines, only that they are there and quite noticeable. The coin is absolutely stunning and I made my best offer on it - PF67 money.
The problem I have with the auction description, and the reason for my post, is the statement he made that
I could find no hairlines or other blemishes even with the aid of magnification.
I know the coin - I held it in my hand and graded it, not off a scan. Experts can disagree and PF68 may very well be a reasonable grade for the coin (but if it is, then why did it take a year to sell at just over 67 money? And why did Stacks only grade it "Very Choice Proof"?). But that statement cannot be defended. A patch of die finish lines IS a noticeable blemish on a proof coin and they are quite severe. Without the toning, the coin would never make it above 64.
I still love the coin and I agree it's mostly irrelevant what it brought at auction. But how much is the holder really worth?
If in fact the coin has very noticable lines in the field (regardless of origin) then I agree the seller should have at least made mention of this in his listing to be accurate.
As far as Stacks grading, they also previously graded a toned, world class 1893-S Morgan as a raw coin in their catalog and it later graded a 67 at PCGS, in fact, it was later said that at least one grader at PCGS gave it a 68. Stacks has at times in the past been quite conservative on high dollar raw pieces in their descriptions.
If you really think this piece would be no better than a 64 without the color, thats quite a statement!
Dragon
Now, now, please don't rush to the john and throw up.
OK I'm guilty of drawing conclusions and rendering opinions on a coin I haven't seen, and there is no way anyone can remotely grade a deeply toned proof 20 cent piece from a computer scan, thats a fact.
Shame on sneaky snake for his poor quality pictures. If he wants $65k for a coin he should at least post a decent picture so we can tell more than it's just a Seated series in a NGC slab. I've seen his pictures AND his coins and let me tell you his picts look nothing like the coins. I think he uses generic or stock photos. Huh, snake?
So tradedollarnut I am interested in the tech aspects of the coin so what is that thing that looks like an X in the field and is that a scratch going from the back of Liberty's head down by her hand and to her foot near the rim?
However, as we know... good and even expert graders can disagree on grades for coins with no problems....let alone a possibly mint caused problem. I have no ethical qualm whatsoever with relying on NGC's grade, just the statement that there are no flaws under magnification.
I also hope against hope that all my $30,000 coins become $250,000 coins!!!!
I like it as a toned coin because I'm sure the tone isn't as dark & thick as it looks; it's more translucent or electric in person with the silver prooflike surfaces blasting through the toning, so the breaks in the color and the fingerprints are barely noticable in real life.
I don't like it as a 68 though.
I believe it was Avena that bought the coin out of the sale. He bought a lot of the proofs and for strong money. If he was able to jump this from 66 to 68 he has some powerfully good luck.
Since I didn't view this for 5-8 seconds like a grading service, but rather 30 sec or more, the hairlines stood out after the initial impression, which by the way was a 66-67 coin. I made no mention of any other defects on the coin. I felt the hairlines were minor but
still took it down a grade. I agree with TDN's assessment of a max of 67 value on this coin.
roadrunner
Boy, You have a quandry. Before all else - - - You've got to go with your "gut" feeling. Either way goes with this one. It's a beautiful coin. I usually abhor toning. But, this I think is original "baby-love" toning over the years. I wish you the best in your decision --- I'm split right down the middle on this one. Above All guy, Weigh all and go with your feelings. I wish I was in your league.
Respectfully,
Dan
just a 65 ($17,000 back then). Due to grade and color inflation the coin has gone from a 65 to a 68. It's value is probably still essentially unchanged since then....may $20,000 in each market.
Hence the fallacy of what a coin was worth back in 1989. This particular coin was never worth $100k, let alone $50K in 1989.
In fact, no one actually owned a PF67 PCGS 20 cent piece prior to
June of 1989. My pop report shows none graded to that point and only 4 - PF66's for type. Compare that to today where PCGS has graded 30 or so pieces in 66 and 3 or more 67's. Nearly a full point grade shift and a much larger overall supply to choose from. NGC's shift has been even larger due to the color effect. Anyone (including DHRC who does it all the time) making these comparisons today is just being inaccurate and deceptive IMO. Apples and Oranges my friends. If you really did own the first PF67 20 cent piece made back in 1989-90 it could very possibly grade out as 68 or even 69 today. As a PCGS69 level it still might be worth close to the same $100K it was in 1989. PCGS and NGC rarely gave out 67's back then, and nothing in the 68/69 range unless the coin was essentially flawless, as struck and mind boggling to boot. 68's and 69's did not exist except in rare instances back then and to compare today's coins price-wise to them is ridiculous.
roadrunner
TDN: As always, you generally have a clue about what you are talking about.
I don't think think these slab graders spend much time with a glass. They have time quotas, and I think a lot of it goes on first impression. That's why so many slab grades are so inconsistent.
It's a shame, but I am what the economists call "a price taker." All I can do is sort through the stuff to find the gems. Out of 500 coins I might see 20 that interest me and perhaps half of those are priced at levels that I can consider. Slabbing has fixed some problems, but created others.
While I love the look of the coin, I still have to wonder about the value of slab grades. Maybe to some the eye-appeal merits a market grade of PF-68, but I can't help but be concerned over the future. What happens if technical grading becomes the most popular way to grade again in the future? If TDN is correct in his observations, the coin could face a 4-point drop. While this wouldn't hurt an AU-55 coin too much, it would devistate a super-grade MS or PF coin.
As long as collectors judge coins by their own merits and aren't cowed by "expert opinion" as evidenced by a slab number, all will be well.
Obscurum per obscurius
CG
The toning (eye appeal) should be factored into the grade as a whole, not added onto after a grade is established, even though NGC does that sometimes IMO.
Dragon
6 of one, half dozen of the other.