How long will RED last?
DAM
Posts: 2,410 ✭✭
Is there a secret to keeping a copper coin Red? Why do some keep their color, while others don't? Is it the way they're kept? How long will the Red last?
The reason I ask is because some of the rarities being talked about now will someday lose their color. How long is that likely to take?
Would it be wise, if you're going to hand down your collection, to buy the finest copper coins in Brown? Your descendants wait for the day when Brown is the color of all copper coins (19th century and older let's say), and it becomes an issue of grade, not color, that determines value.
Of course we may be talking 200 years or so from now. But who's counting.
The reason I ask is because some of the rarities being talked about now will someday lose their color. How long is that likely to take?
Would it be wise, if you're going to hand down your collection, to buy the finest copper coins in Brown? Your descendants wait for the day when Brown is the color of all copper coins (19th century and older let's say), and it becomes an issue of grade, not color, that determines value.
Of course we may be talking 200 years or so from now. But who's counting.
Dan
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In an original roll lincolns can stay red for 90 or more years.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
Many prefer RBs & BNs for this reason as well as cost and fear of doctoring. But there's nothing like blast red copper and the many beautiful tones it comes in! Why can't a coin that's stayed red for a century, without the modern advantages of climate control and slabs, last for many many more generations with those advantages?
also when the heat of the dies strikes a copper coin and imparts a red surface to it the dies for arguments sake heat seals the red color and if stored in a safe clean rreasonably stable reasonasbly dry environment they can stay red forever and for me forever is like 40 years as i will not live another 40 years.....lol so for me forever by defination is 40 years!......lol i mean as paul said look at all the really nice red indians they survived since the late 19 century and they many are still firey red!
sincerely michael
If the coin are in a slab go for the intercept holders as they seem to do no harm but the metal safe also has worked.
Coins in original bank wrapped rolls also seem to work but the ones that are in tubes or hard 2x2 plastcis have done fantastic over the last 33 years.
I have some lincoln cents going back to the 1920's that are as red (or golden red) as the day I bought them in the late 1960's and early 1970's.
My "secret?" Mineral oil. It simply locks all the oxygen out. i took over from a another collector who had a whole bunch of red 1928-D cents and some of my cents have been in mineral oil for, now over 50 years.
It has a longer track record than intercept and a lot cheaper.
I have never had a problem of PCGS questioning a true red cent that had been in mineral oil for years.
The coin must stay submerged in mineral and put into a medium in which the air is locked out (as in a tube or in a hard cased 2x2......I prefer the nickel sized ones as they allow more mineral oil to surround the cent)
But it is messy and drying them off years later takes patience and some reasonable effort.
I can't even imagine.....
Ray
Thanks for the info. I've heard of a lacquer type substance being used to seal the a coin, but don't recall having heard of using mineral oil.
How do you remove it and does it leave a residue? Would a grading service notice the mineral oil and body bag it?
Secondly, just because a coin looks red doesn't mean it's "original" red. There are quite a few 65R coins in reputable holders that have had spots romoved. This removes the overlying "protective" toning and reveals the "original" red color underneath. This has the bright red color of the raw planchet that has been protected all these years. I'll post a picture later tonight when I get home so you can see what I mean. By the way, it is these toning breaks one looks for if one is concerned about a coin having been "doctored", typically done for removal of grade-limiting spots.
Bottom line is, "original" red coins have toned somewhat over the years but retain primarily a red color. It is these beautifully toned coins that a "red cent" hunter looks for, similar to finding a beautifully toned "original" silver coin.
Great info. Personally, I've not been one to "doctor" my coins. I prefer to accept them as they are. I know collectors who routinely mess with their coins, that's their gig.
The hard part is "knowing" what is natural and what is "man made".
The close up (this on the 1909-S) is on the reverse between the 2 ribbon ends. It's hard to illustrate but a carbon spot was removed, the altered area 3X the size of the original spot. ...probably not enough to keep PCGS from grading it 65R but perhaps 66R was the goal. As you can see, the color is different. In person it is indeed red, the original color of the planchet pre-striking (the strike/coining process will alter the surface in it's own way but that's a different topic).
The intent is to make the spot inhomogeneous enough to not catch ones eye, making it look like a subtle area of natural toning. I guess this begs the question - why is it in a high grade PCGS holder??
Thanks for the pics!
I'm curious, without prior knowledge these areas have been doctored, is there any other explaination for what might have caused the color change in the discussed areas? Is it definitly doctoring?
DAM -- this is an area of copper coin doctoring I was unaware of until Lakesamman clued me in. You have to be an experienced collector who examines a lot of high grade key dates in person, as he is, to develop an eye for this. He's amazed me a couple of times by pointing out spot removal jobs I never would have noticed. If they're well done the pin marks are easily missed under normal magnification, and the evidence can be almost impossible to image.
Here's an example off a high grade copper where you can see the pinmarks that flicked away a spot. To the naked eye they were invisable, and even under a loup you could pass right over them. It took just the right lighting to give them enough shadow definition for imaging:
I also like his comments about "red" coppers having already acquired a protective skin of toning. Many shades fall into the red class, and this variety is what I like most about copper. The many autumnal colors that qualify as red, to me, are the most beautiful tones in numismatics.
Appreciate the coments..... I know others have noticed long before me.......
Extremely good examples and photography. Thanks. Damn, now I have to go and reexamine all my IHCs.
Simply squeeze pat the mineral oil off with very soft tissue paper several times (no rubbing) and after a few times the oil will be squeezed off the coin or simply let the mineral oil evaporate by opening the holders a crack and the mineal oil will dry out. I know of others who use a acetone rinse to eliminate the oils with complete success although I do not recommend it.
Over 500 of previously mineral oiled cents have made it into PCGS, NGC, ANACS and even ICCS holders and never was one rejected.
Why?? Simply the mineral oil mimics the birthing of cents as they were born from dies and machinery containing lots and LOTS of various machines oils to keep things well oiled. In fact, dies in the 19th century was frequently kept in buckets of LARD to keep them from rusting!!!
Take a look at many cents in the original mint bags ....many have lots of an oily film on them. Ever wonder why?
The mineral oil does not seal the surface in any way like lacquer but instead puts the coin into a suspended animation. The surfaces are NOT affected in any way!!!
I do NOT recommend this for PROOF copper ever for obvious reasons. Only for red cents or for very close to full red mint state copper coins.
What a wealth of information you've posted here.
Thanks much!
This includes fingerprint (finger oil), spittle (from talking over a coin), any sort of cleaning fluid, sulphur (old paper envelopes)...
Once cleaned all bets are off.
It's true that a coin gets a tough "shell" at the time of striking which should remain red for a long long time. Just don't mishandle it.
The fears many collectors express with coins "turning" in their holders comes from seeing blatant RB coins in certified holders. I know for a fact that many of those were never red - they were misgraded to begin with. Others that may have been "enhanced" just before their submission will turn back after a few weeks or perhaps a few months. The PR68RD Indian with a fingerprint sitting in the grading room is an example of a coin which was mishandled during the submission process (probably by the owner putting it in the flip, not the graders) Many red collectors prefer coins with 5 year old+ pedigrees, or an older style holder to insure that the coin will not turn on them. Aside from that, a real red is truly a sight to see.
WS
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>If possible, coat with a film of mineral oil (or submerge in mineral oil) and they will remain red probably forever.
Coppernicus >>
Be sure to use the unscented and not the stuff they rub on babies butts!
Doesn't the coin cleaning product "Blue Ribbon" do the same thing?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Copper is only as stable as the collectors who own it. Those who crack out 100 year old coppers on a regular basis could care less what the coin looks like 2 years from now. Those who collect and resell in their original holders respect originality. Original and Green IH labeled IH's are worth bidding on. Blue labeled require some investigation or a good sense of what original looks like.
You had to do some digging to bring this back to life.
There's a lot of good information here.