Dannreuther says patterns "white hot" - do you

Lakesammman

collect patterns?? If so, what type/series? Do you agree they're hot?? Why?? If possible, post a picture of your favorite and why it is a favorite. Below is mine.



Why?? It was my introduction to patterns and IHC/FE cents. My wife and I were in NY at the Eliasberg auction. I had been out of coins for at least 20 years and was dabbling in coins with a type set, not sure what to collect. We had caught the red-eye to NY, fell asleep at the theatre and awoke to the opening music of le' Miserables. We previewed the auction lots the next day and I fell in love with this pattern....don't know why, just did. Met David Bowers, Jay Perrino, Del Bland and others. It was a great time and the start of my IHC/FE "passion".... sold off my type set to start it. It's one of the few coins I wouldn't upgrade because of the memories.

How about you??

RegistryCoin

The unique-, or near unique-ness of Patterns is very alluring. Recognition of the very low mintages will be evident with an uptick in prices. Until greater recognition, "white hot" probably is overstated. Picking up a few along the way can't be bad. It is unimaginable that some of the designs have been overlooked for use in today's search for nice commem designs.

lordmarcovan

I was tempted on an 1863 J-312 "God Our Trust" 2c pattern in PCGS PR64 (65?) RB recently. I think I missed the boat on it, though. I've never had a pattern, and seldom buy coins at that market level. I imagine there are very, very few pattern coins left that are under $1,000? (Too bad I can't buy 'em at the prices shown in my old Judd book- I'd go on a shopping spree!)

That 2c pattern might be floating around out there still. I forget the seller. The auction ended but I don't think it found any buyers. It was just under $2,000. Thanks to the recent sale of my gold Registry set, I could have purchased it when I was free to spend the gold sale money, but that would have eaten up a pretty good chunk. I just bought an 1868 PCGS PR64 RD 2c piece (not a pattern coin, of course) and I am tempted to start a Registry set of proof 2c coins- that Judd pattern would have been a cool way to start it off. Hmm...

That's a gorgeous FE cent, BTW. I like those and the 1858 Indians.

lordmarcovan

Aha- they relisted that J-312.

What do y'all think? Would you go for it if you were me?

That's an interesting site the seller mentioned:

http://coinswanted.com/patternprices.htm.

I always wondered if there was anything out there that updated the prices in the Judd book.
Prior to viewing that auction the first time, I'd never heard of that site.

I welcome opinions on both the 2c J-312 pattern I'm tempted by, and the pattern prices site. I must confess that while I have been a collector for 26 years, I am very, very new to the pattern game. One might say I was born yesterday. (Well, actually this summer, when I saw the Judd book for the first time.) I still have not seen any US pattern coins in person, that I can recall. I might have seen one or two at the last FUN, but can't remember.

oreville

The patterns were so ice cold for so many years that the "way overdue" and big time thawing seems hot in comparison.

My favorite patterns are the trio aluminum patterns of the regular gold dies...... all graded PCGS PR65 for the 1872 $20 (J-1254) and 1874 $5 (J-1372) and $10 (J-1380). They are drop dead gorgeous.

Someday I will get updated internet pics on these patterns.

lordmarcovan

Oh, good. I was waiting for Oreville to chime in.

Oreville- what do you think on that J-312 I posted in my last message? Good deal or no?

At least one ear was partially listening when you dropped hints about "a nice pattern" in one of your previous suggestions when I was wondering what to blow my money on. I still haven't blown that money, but mostly because it isn't technically mine to spend, until the guy who bought my gold (which shipped today) has his 5-day return privilege.

I would love to see your aluminum babies.

I am thinking of getting a new metal detector and putting the rest of the money into savings for when we upgrade our housing in the spring, hopefully. But I don't know if I'll have the discipline to save most of it like that, particularly with the FUN show appearing on the horizon...

oreville

lord: Housing comes first!!!!!!

You need more room.

Buy the best you can afford.

The patterns can come later.

lordmarcovan

LOL. I do need more room.

You are the only forum member who has seen this place. A relatively small 14 X 65 mobile home was fine and dandy when we were a young married couple. Now that baby Victoria has joined the 2-cat, 1-dog household, I had to move this computer into the living room, when we made the old spare bedroom/office into baby's room.

I can't wait to have a real office of my own.

But we have earmarked some funds for a down payment on something in the spring. (Our tax refund, for starters). If I really wanna blow that money, it is my coin money, and I can blow it as I please. My wife might roll her eyes, but she knows coin money is coin money and household money is household money. My paycheck goes to the latter, while my eBay proceeds go tho the former of the two.

northcoin

Probably the first "rare coin" I ever purchased was a pattern. It was on the advice of a dealer who convinced me it had a lot of potential. I've had it for years now but really don't know if that potential has been realized. Obviously the price guides are of no help and the dealers where I live hardly see rare coins of any type, much less patterns. Anyone here have an idea? It is an 1865 PCGS Proof 63 $3 in copper from the Pittman Collection.

lordmarcovan

Did you check that site I linked to?

I have no idea of how valid that information is, but it looks like a better guide than I've seen anywhere else?

RegistryCoin

If this is what I'm thinking of, I think I still have a copy. It's not of much use for prices, but gives a nice listing. The prices are wack.

Placid

No I would not buy that and I like patterns.
It is not very unique looking. Too close to the final design.

Hard to pick a favorite.

boiler78

Lakesaaaman- I was at that sale and would have given you some competition for that J-193 but I already had one. I bought the J-192 and J-213 out of Eliasberg along with a couple of seated half patterns. The real pattern sale of our time was the Bass sale. Thats where my icon came from.

I look back at the prices realized in that sale and kick myself for not buying more coins. I think the Bass prices were so low because there was a tremendous flood of patterns all hitting the market at once.

boiler78

LM- I would wait for a J-312 with more eye appeal. That is one of the more plentiful patterns so you will see a better example if your patient.

Lakesammman

Check the on-line prices realized at Heritage and Goldberg - it's a great resource for finding odd pieces and the prices realized at auction. Are their other sites members know of??

truthteller

After a good runup in prices from late 80's to mid 90's, the Pattern Titanic hit an iceberg in late 90's and began to sink. Many buyers paid way too much and are now stuck. The market is very thin and buyers are very selective. Only very high end pieces, PF67, MS67 and up are still desireable. Give it five more years and we might see a bottom. Overall, these are bad investments because there are few price guides and most coins trade between dealers infrequently, often the price changes at a whim.

TRUTH

Lakesammman

Truthteller:

Would agree with your market "report" - you'd better like the coin because you might get stuck with it!

On the other hand, they are getting harder to find and the prices are definitely moving up. The last 2 J208's I bought cost $1475 and $1900 respectively. These were the rare pointed bust 5/6 leaf reverses respectively (high-R7 coins) so not a accurate reflection of the value for the more common J208 round bust 5 leaf reverse.....can't begin to comment on non-IHC/FE patterns.

Bottom line is - collect 'em if you like 'em but don't expect liquidity or a tidy profit (gee - sounds alot like coins in general)

coinguy1

I love patterns but "thruthteller" speaks the truth. Caution is advised. The pattern market is an example of an area with a very low supply but a relatively low demand, as well. Frankly, many of them are simply too rare to be promoted and that has worked against them.

I have been told that a new pattern book should be out some time early next year and I do anticipate it having a somewhat positive effect.

Coulport

Supply and demand.

If there was one new player added it would probably increase the collector/investor base by 10%.

Very thin market. IMHOP

Mark

Mark:

Do you have any more information about the potential new pattern book?

Mark

coinguy1

Mark,

PM being sent to you.

Lakesammman

How about a CC to me??

lordmarcovan

<< <i>LM- I would wait for a J-312 with more eye appeal. That is one of the more plentiful patterns so you will see a better example if you're patient. >>



Thanks. I guess I'll stick with regular-issue proof 2-centers for a while.

oreville

lord: I am glad that my comments (not posted here) plus the others who agreed convinced you to stick with the regular issues.

Patterns are really neat to own but my main concern with patterns are that you need to hold them at least 10 years (real long term) and then they will possibly reward you. But to try to own one for a shorter period and then try to sell them is suicide (in coin terms).

When you have gotten close to completing your two center set then at that time, adding a pattern or two to "dress" up the set would be neat. But you are not there yet!!!!

I have quite a few dime patterns because I made it part of my dime type set and I have had many of them for 5 to 10 years (and more) already. It made for a fabulous looking and cool set. They have been a terrible "investment" but I did not buy them as an investment. I bought them because they were irreplaceable as they are all R-7 rarities.

Sad to say I do not yet own one of those lovely Morgan pattern dimes. They are really cool!!

shylock

I don't own any, but enjoy looking at them because of the unusual designs. Some have sensational numismatic artwork but are just a little too bold to make the final cut into circulation.

The Harry Bass 1879 Dollar pattern is interesting because of the drastic difference in mood between the obverse & reverse. The obverse has the Morgan "Schoolgirl" with hair neatly tied in a ribbon, while the reverse features the fierce "Defiant Eagle".