Percentage MS65 Ike's When Submitting to PCGS?

moosesr

Ike experts please help me. What percentage of your Ikes submitted to PCGS get a MS65 or higher grade? Can someone tell me some specific things to look for when trying to determine if an Ike will grade MS65?

I am getting ready to send in my first batch of Ikes to PCGS and wondered what percentage of them I could expect to be graded MS65. I have several PCGS MS64, MS65, and MS66 coins that I am using as grading examples for deciding which Ikes to send to PCGS, but after comparing all of them I don't think I quite get it yet on what makes an Ike a MS65 or better grade. I have some MS65's that look better to me than some of my MS66 coins. I also have 12 PCGS MS64 Ikes that I covered the grade on and put three MS65 Ikes in with them and tried to pick out the MS65 coins. I was only able to pick out one of the MS65 coins on the first try and it was all down hill after that.

Thanks, Charlie

jcping

Depend on which mint that you try to submit. If you are talking about P-mint, unless you know what you are doing; otherwise, the percentage of MS65 is remote. If you are submitting S-mint, chance should be good.

DHeath

Charlie, they really assign a premium to luster, strike and overall appearance. Baggy high luster coins sometimes make 65, and mark free dull coins, or coins struck on poor planchets sometimes don't. Coins with very little disturbance and high luster go 66. Sometimes the planchets are so poor that they look hairlined and porous. Ikes really are tough to find above 65 raw. I have a holdered 78-P that is mark free, but the planchet was so poor it graded MS63. Hope that helps.

BTW- They're easier on the 71P and 72P with regards to luster.

moosesr

I am having the most trouble with grading the P and D MS Ikes, most of the MS64 Ikes I have are 1972P. Since luster was mentioned as being very important, would it be safe to use MS70 cleaner on the clad or silver Ikes?

Charlie

supercoin

It's tough to improve a clad coin without making things worse. If you've got a nice looking coin I wouldn't mess with it. For silver coins, you can dip them in a dilute Jeweluster, but if you're trying to remove white spots as found in mint packaging, they're probably there for good. Dipping can also hurt the luster, not improve it.

The grading thing is a huge question, especially since different dates are graded a little differently. In additon to the 71-P and 72-P, the 76-P Ty1 is another one that's cut some slack. A 71-S is cut a little slack too.

So you can't directly compare your coins with one that's holdered of a different date. And in addition, the amount of slack PCGS has cut the tough dates has varied over the years. As has their grading in general. And of course nobody can grade perfectly consistently.

So if some of your MS64's look like MS65's or vice versa... that's pretty par for the course.

I guess I'd just pick out nice coins that you think have a shot. Ones that are nice enough you don't mind dropping some money on. And see what happens.

Good luck!

DHeath

Charlie,

MS70 won't hurt the coins, but I doubt it'll help either. The lousy luster on the 72P's is usually the poor planchet (rough under magnification). Just for the record, I struggle to guess correctly with these coins too. Look at Inv# 900182 . It is my most recent. I knew the silver coins were so-so, but I liked all the clad coins.

gmarguli

The MS64/MS65 line for clad Ikes keeps moving at PCGS. These (grades) and Franklins are probably the most "mis-graded" by PCGS.

moosesr

Don,
I tried that invoice number 900182 and it didn't work.

Charlie

supercoin

Gotta differ on the comment about MS70... especially with those dates that often have rough surfaces. MS70 can remove that thin layer of toning that's helping hide that horrid planchet in all it's gory detail.

Don't even put those coins in a stiff breeze -- certify them immediately!

DHeath

Sorry Charlie, try 9000182 . SC, as for the toning, one has only to look at your icon to know toning isn't bad.

moosesr

I did try some MS70 on a deeply gold toned 1976D Type 1 coin and wound up with silver colored streaks running across the coin (maybe from the rough planchet). Also the MS70 made a really small scratch show up like a sore thumb. I thought maybe the MS70 would work on a coin that was not toned, but appeared to be just dirty. Sounds like I should just leave the dirt alone

What about the MS silver Ikes. I have a nice 1971S still in the mint package that looks like it has a white powder on it What should I use to remove the powder?

moosesr

Hi Don, two out of six Clad MS Ikes got 65. I know you said you liked all the clad coins, but were you more positive that some would be MS65 than others and were those the ones that actually made MS65.

Charlie

DHeath

Yeah Charlie, the D mint coins were nicer, and I was just hoping with borderline P mint coins. They were too nice not to gamble $10 on, but not nice enough to complain about the grade they received.

joejoe2000

I went through a bunch of mint set and sent in the nicest 4. I went 1 for 4.
The 65 was a 1978.

misterR

Thanks for sharing your grades with everyone Don. PCGS has been very tough on their grading of business strike Ikes for at least six months now. I still get the occasional 66 but with 64s and 65s being the most common. Several dealer/collectors I know are having our same problem.

cjmbuffalo

Charlie

Thought you might like to see this as it shows the difficulty in the "S" mints. This was put together in August of this year.

Charlie
Coins 1 out of
Date Mintage Grade Graded % of Mintage Every

71s 6,868,530 MS66 772 0.0112397% 8,897
71s 6,868,530 MS67 110 0.0016015% 62,441
72s 2,193,056 MS67 1905 0.0868651% 1,151
72s 2,193,056 MS68 460 0.0209753% 4,768
73s 1,883,140 MS67 1069 0.0567669% 1,762
73s 1,883,140 MS68 238 0.0126385% 7,912
74s 1,900,156 MS67 1298 0.0683102% 1,464
74s 1,900,156 MS68 208 0.0109465% 9,135
76S 4,294,081 MS67 639 0.0148809% 6,720
76S 4,294,081 MS68 56 0.0148809% 76,680

moosesr

I don't understand the chart on percentages of silver Ikes. I hadn't thought about using population report data before, but couldn't I figure the averaged percentage of Ikes making MS65 on each submission by dividing the number in MS65 by the total number graded? For instance, I have an old population report that shows 798 1972P Ikes graded with 216 making MS65. That would give a percentage of MS65 to be 27% or about one out of four submitted. Somehow that doesn't sound right based on what I hear from the people on this forum who have submitted the 1972P and other dates for certification. Also, one dealer who is supposedly and expert on Ikess told me he recently submitted 12 1972P coins and got all MS64's.

Charlie

cjmbuffalo

Sorry on the confusion on the chart. When I posted, it jammed it all together. I have taken one line so you can interpet the mess above.


71s 6,868,530 MS66 772 0.0112397% 8,897

The 1971S had a mintage of 6,868,530.
PCGS has graded 772 in MS66
That works out to 1 in every 8,897 coins minted have made that grade or .0112397%

You can work the same numbers for the P and D mints. It will give you and idea on how tough it is to get the grade.

Charlie

moosesr

Charlie, Thanks for calarifying the chart for me. I understand your chart now, but I was talking about percentages of MS65's based on the number of coins submitted to PCGS for grading, not total populations.

Charlie

keets

hey charlie

i think your chart is a good idea but your data is misleading in the conclusion it draws. to give a better idea of what a submitter might expect, perhaps you should figure each individual assigned grade vs. the total number of graded coins. after all, submitters don't just choose a random coin and send it in for grading. presumably they select what they consider a high grade coin, unless of course your name is Pat Braddick!!!!! with that in mind, consider the following:

7408---1971-S---S$1---Silver-MS-0-0-0-0-1-0-5-47-559-1284-814-115-0-0----2825

if you consider that a total of 2,285 coins have been graded by PCGS, you'll see that the chances of receiving a grade of MS65 are just about 50% with 1,284 having been graded as such. at MS66 it drops to about 35%.

you have to remember that the above assumes the submitter is making a choice of what coins to send in, a logical assumption.

al h.

supercoin

Yes, to get the percentage you're looking for, just divide the pop in MS65 or higher by the total number submitted.

Keep in mind, of course, that has very little to do with the general population of coins, because nobody (well, almost nobody) is intentionally submitting lower grade (MS63 or less) coins, as the market value of those is less than the cost of certification in most cases.

It also has little do with what you're likely to get on your submission -- that's much more dependent on your skill in weeding out the lower grades, and how conservative you want to be, i.e. submitting only "lock" MS65s, or those on the edge. And, of course, the usual variance at PCGS.

Best way to find out, is pay to play. You should be able to get most of your money back with MS64s, or maybe even make a bit with tougher dates, so it shouldn't be too painful. Good luck!

supercoin

What keets said... 3 seconds faster than me, ack!

There should be a little blinking light on a message thread that shows someone else has a reply in progress.

keets

hey tad

we were typing on each others keyboards and didn't even know it!!!!!!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!


al h.

cjmbuffalo

Keets:

Thanks for the suggestion. It does make sense to look at it that way. Perhaps there is an amalgamation of using both to come up with a probability index for each grade. Still a lot of the grading does seem to depend on the point in time that a coin is submitted to a grading service. I have ten Ikes in PCGS at the moment and I believe that one should go MS69 as there is not a scratch or mark to be seen anywhere on the coin, the strike is good and the eye appeal terrific. I have a MS68 of the same year and the coin I sent in is so far above it. Still I bet I will get a 68.

Thanks for all the feed back!

Charlie

cladking

With original mint sets about 3% of '73's and '74's, 2% of 76 t1, 5% of the other bicentennial,
and 6% of the '77's and '78's should make MS-65. Of course, it can be difficult to find sets that
haven't been picked over. If you open up boxes (bag) this should be good for a ballpark expec-
tation. There is a little mre variation between mints than is shown with the Denver being a little
easier to find. MS-66's are much tougher.