Why won't people talk about the the darkside of toned coins?
jmwarren
Posts: 155 ✭
Last night, I asked a question about PCGS slabbing AT coins. I then asked a question about the most ever paid over redbook value for a toned coin, only because of the toning. I also asked why you don't see ancient toned coins. All of those questions received very little response. Thanks to those who did. Why are people afraid to discuss the fact that THERE IS A CHANCE that all of these "SUPER DUPER MONSTER GREEN BLAZER FROM H*LL" toned coins are AT, and someday will be exposed as AT, and will be labeled as such, and their value will be that of any other "tooled" coin.
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Run a search on the topic on this board and you will see plenty of post for and against with sometimes cruel and unjustified responses to each other. I for one am a bit gun shy of providing opinions either emotional or scientific but would enjoy an email discussion with you.
TBT
Frank
Perhaps there were not a lot of replies because of the way the questions were phrased? For instance, prices/grades listed in the Red book don't even apply to many of the coins (MS66 and higher) that sell for huge premiums due to their color. And, even for coins/grades that are listed in the red book, the prices are not timely, anyway, even at the time of its annual publication date.
Regarding your question :
<< <i>Why are people afraid to discuss the fact that THERE IS A CHANCE that all of these "SUPER DUPER MONSTER GREEN BLAZER FROM H*LL" toned coins are AT, and someday will be exposed as AT, and will be labeled as such, and their value will be that of any other "tooled" coin.
<< <i>
I'm not at all convinced that people are afraid to discuss it. I don't think that, as you put it, there is a chance.... Many numismatists have seen first hand, how coins tone naturally and how they are toned artificially. And, while PCGS has, in all likelihood, holdered coins which have been artificially toned, your question/point seems to jump from point A to point Z, with no real facts/basis to connect those points. It might make for interesting reading, but I believe it would be fiction. Just my personal opinion.
Toning is the result of a chemical reaction, so creating it is not a difficult task.
I have no idea how anyone could tell the difference on how that reaction occurred.
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since 8/1/6
I have 1952 franklin thats not worth much(MS64 at most no fbl) but I decided to play with it some.
I put it on a piece of cardboard in and put it inside a open window durning the summer and turned it over every couple of weeks.
Now it has nice gold and blue-green toning on both sides mostly around the rims.
Is that AT or not?
Would it get body bagged for AT?
Should it get body bagged for AT?
There is a better chance that ALL of the US coins you currently have in your pocket are counterfiet then there is that ALL of the nicely toned coins are AT. Too many poeple seen original mint sealed bags opened and the coins pulled from the bag WITH the beautiful toning to actually think they are all AT, and this WAS BEFORE they really commanded any premium. Back then a brilliant coin was worth more which is why so many were dipped and cleaned (or tooled as you like to call it), so why would somebody spend so much time ATing a coin when it was worth more brilliant then toned?
The oak barrels and fermentation time are costly to a business. Each barrel costs about $600, makes about 60 bottles of wine and is used once for fine wines. $10 per bottle, plus the 3 yr investment of aging it. How does this relate to coins? Some cheating wine makers started using wood chips, artificial flavors, and other tricks. And for a new wine, you might not tell much of a difference. But they don't age the same. They go downhill fast.
My biggest concern with AT coins is that the colors won't last. If no one knows the difference and it looks exactly like a Childs album toned coin, then I will enjoy it just as much. But what if the accelerated toning fades or goes dark in 5 or 10 years?
I think the high prices are justified. No one is forcing people to pay this and it is what the market will bear. Perhaps we need a new grading service (or an extension of the current ones) dedicated to toning authenticity, using advanced scientific techiques to determine real or AT. Perhaps they would spend 5 minutes per coin instead of mere seconds. Tone lovers might pay extra for that improved guarantee.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
<< <i>Also, in reference to the comm. that Anaconda recently purchased. Everyone was hoot'n and a holler'n about how NGC slabbed it thus "making it natural toning". Well PCGS said it wasn't. Why is that coin as valuable as it is now that NGC slabbed it? Perhaps NGC slabbed it because no one can prove it was AT'd? >>
PCGS also refused to review the history gathered on the coin to help prove its authenticity. I met several of NGC’s graders at the St. Louis show and we talked about this artificial toning issue. The services are not infallible but they are also on the front lines backed with extensive knowledge and are able to review 1000’s of coins each week.
As far as your taking on the grading services for slabbing AT, all they can do is guess based upon years of experience. Personally I will listen to them before I take your comments too much to heart.
Finally, why do you give a rip what others find attractive and collect? This is coin collecting not a serious life endeavor.
Well... since a monster toned Peace Dollar is worth significantly more than a similar Morgan, that's actually an argument in favor of the toning being natural.
Oops!
Actually I did see many pieces (were you actively searching for them in the 70's and 80's?? I thought not), about half of all the toned coins I own were purchased 14-17 years ago and I did not even buy half of the ones I seen because I did not have enough money. Also the Internet has allowed anybody anywhere to show their coins or see coins that were not available for viewing in the past. Very few people carry their best coins around to shows for other people to view them when they were not for sale so there was no way to know they even existed unless you personally knew the collectors.
Why are almost all of the "monster rainbow" coins Morgans and not Peace Dollars?
For the same reason you rarely if ever see any Morgans dated in the 1890's and 1900's with beautiful rainbow toning, they were handled differently as well as the length of time. It obvious that it took a good 70-80 years for the best toning to develop and most mint bags were dispersed in the 60's and 70's so if the coins weren't sitting since the 1880's then they rarely developed the type of toning that commands the big bucks.
Then how do you explain the modern "MONSTERS"?
Really? Show me!
<<Also, RR, we know for a FACT that people have had their AT coins slabbed by PCGS. If these people can take $100.00 and turn it into $5000.00, you don't think it is happening a lot? I'm telling you these people basically have assembly lines set up AT'ing coins. TAKE MY WORD for it, it is happening, and if people can't admit this, they are living in a fantasy world>>
A FACT? Since when? Not a day goes by that I don't hear about doctors cranking out perfectly replicated bag toned dollars (the $100 turned into $5000 coins)...but not once has someone been able to prove it to me! I'm not in any way "sticking up" for the toned dollar market to protect my investments, I own less than $3k worth of toned coins, and considering I most likely wouldn't sell them for ANY amount of money, I could care less what they're worth.
<<There is just too much evidence out there that AT coins are running rampant like the plague through these slabbing services>><FONT color=#000099>
<FONT color=#000000>I hate to say this, but there isn't one shread of evidence that AT coins are "running rampant like the plague" through the services. Sure, now and then a coin or two slips through, but all the "evidence" you speak of is simply what someone said, not what someone demonstrated or proved. It's not hard for a doctor to stick a coin in an oven, but that is not anything even remotely similar to replicating original looking bag toning.
<<Why are almost all of the monster toned coins Morgan dollars and not peace dollars?>>
Obviously Peace dollars were not stored in bags by the millions for years and years as Morgans were, so that accounts for the lack of bag toned Peace dollars. As for other types of toning (end roll, album, envelope, etc.), it was explained to me that after the planchets are heated up (so they are softer and therefore more easily struck), they are washed in acid as a method of cleansing. The acid used to clean peace dollars was harsher than the acid used to clean Morgans. This greatly slowed the toning process on the Peace dollars.
Kyle</FONT>
</FONT>
<< <i>why didn't you see all of these monster rainbow's on the market 20 years ago? Because there wasn't a demand for them, they didn't exist. >>
The fact that there was not the level of demand there is today does not automatically mean that they did not exist. They may very well have existed, but without market demand, there was no incentive to search bags, hoards and stashes of coins.
Russ, NCNE
The IS evidence there is, due to the stories you have heard on here alone, about members seeing coin doctor's work slabbed, AND THE MEMBERS OWN WORK being slabbed!!!!!! There is NO EVIDENCE that they AREN'T running rampant through the services. What, do you think the coin doctors skills are going to get worse and not better? They are going to keep IMPROVING. duh.
I would say it sure is a good indication though.
This topic HAS been talked to death.....over and over again during the last year or so that I've actively been monitoring these boards.
Toned Morgans are more common because they're in so much more demand than Peace dollars and therefore the doctors focus on Morgans? Sorry, but that's hogwash. Anyone that knows anything about the subject knows that beautifully toned Peace dollars are much rarer than Morgans and bring HUGE premiums when compared to Morgans. For those great coin doctors out there, the real money is to be made toning Peace dollars, not Morgans. So why aren't they running those assembly lines with Peace dollars?
There weren't the number of toned Morgans on the market 20 years ago that there are today? Therefore, the coin doctors must be cranking them out? RotatedRainbows hit the nail on the head. It's easy to plaster scans of beautifully toned Morgans on the net but not so easy to haul them around to shows for everyone to see. And let's face it, many forum members never even go to shows. The internet has made our community even smaller through the ability to communicate with others without travel and one of the benefits is that we can view one another's collections. Uncirculated Morgans number in the tens of millions and some percentage of them are naturally toned. They're not rare and never have been.
RR also brought up another great point about the coin doctor's work. I work with a number of collectors who are attempting to put together complete sets of toned Morgans and Peace dollars by date and mintmark. Toned coins from the 1890's and 1900's are in strong demand but can hardly ever be found with natural toning. I don't understand why the coin doctors, whose work fools us daily, don't crank up their assembly lines with those dates so that I can fill all these orders. These guys must not be as bright as we give them credit for on this forum.
These toned beauties will someday be worth a fraction of today's value when everyone finally gets wise? Perhaps you're right. But it's okay. You don't need to worry about my future financial health. Like KyleKnap, I own some coins that I doubt I'll ever sell at any price so I don't really give a hoot what the market does. Also, I'm sure everyone here is quite capable of taking care of themselves. Just look back over the blue sheet for the last 15 years or so and you'll see EVERYONE took some big hits as the coin market cycled. It's a fact of life. But we seem to still be here.
I own all sorts of coins, some white, some toned. I enjoy them all. I suggest we all just enjoy what we collect and leave everyone else alone so that they can collect what they enjoy. It'd be a pretty boring hobby if we all collected the same thing.
When I want some controversy, I'll just go to the Open Forum and post a thread suggesting that we pass the time drowning puppies.
GSAGUY
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
All I see is more attacks. You need to take your attitude to the woodshed and have it readjusted. My apologies to any of the other board members that I may have offended.
gemtone, thanks for your information. I belive KyleKnapp's "debunking" was as much wishful thinking as you believe my remarks are. There is nothing in his argument that can't be argued the other way. People like Kyle won't believe it till the coin doctors comes out of the darkness and show the thousands of coins they have AT'd. That won't happen, because they are getting rich. Its not enough for him to believe the repsected members here who have met these doctors, or, the ones who have said they did it themselves.
<< <i>OK here it goes, sometimes somethings just need to said. For your sake jmwarren I hope you are a young man, hopefully you still have time to learn about life and grow up. You have offered absolutely nothing here that we all don't know about AT. Any your proof comes down to what you have heard, mostly speculation. After reading your post on the open forum about mexicans, which was blatantly racist and childlike I lost total respect for you, as have others, maybe that is why they haven't posted to your thread.
All I see is more attacks. You need to take your attitude to the woodshed and have it readjusted. My apologies to any of the other board members that I may have offended. >>
you don't like what I have to say, so now you resort to personal attacks. You proved my point about "militant" defenders of toned coins.
<< <i>Why are the people with the most knowledge and experience paying premiums for nice toned coins? Both dealers and collectors? Believe what you want...you should probably buy dipped. K >>
yea, like registrycoin?
You have been rebuked by several of the most respected and knowledgeable tone coin collectors/dealers in the industry with decades of proof backing their statements.
Just offer up your proof.
. Every thing you write is angry.You really need to
take a break and go on vacation, somewhere nice and peaceful. Bear
Camelot
Stman
Bear, I'm not an angry person. This is an issue I am interested in. I like to debate, I like to learn. Show me the monster peace dollars that blow the morgan prices out of the water. I do want to learn. But, I'm not going to blow smoke up a persons arse and make kissie faces with them.
I've also witnessed some of this AT'ing.
My favorite was watch one "DR" Dealer use a shoe box- compressed air, and two different types of gases (!) to turn Morgans "GREEN" (he said, 'step one in a five step process').
He also used a teeth whitening lazer machine (wierd) and heat to accomplish some interesting effects.
With that said, he's just one guy out of about a dozen he bragged about that could get these coins into PCGS holders.
Even then, I STILL buy toned coins! I've spent a little over two grand just in the last month on rainbow coinage- everything from a 1992 PR68DCAM PCGS ASE to a rainbow rimmed toned PCGS Kennedy half (off of eBay from a member here). Could these coins be AT? Of course!
I even received a pleasant PM from a member warning me about the possibility of a $50.00 raw 1957-D Lincoln I just bought off of eBay as being fake.
Oh well.
I guess it comes down to this: I know eating a Twinkie and drinking a cold Dr. Pepper isn't that good for me, but I do it anyway (on occassion).
Live Life! If the world ends and I then find out ALL my coins are fake and AT, at least I've enjoyed the journey.
peacockcoins
Hey Braddick, as long as you aren't paying $10,000 for the twinkie and $15,000 for the Dr. Pepper, I wouldn't worry about it.
He has an agenda and our responses only serve to keep him going. I would urge anyone who is thinking about joining this (waste of a thread) to refrain. I know, from having seen similar situations, that the temptation to respond usually overcomes the effort to refrain. I will not post to this thread again, no matter what is said by whom. You have my word on it. Please join me.
I could answer "why" I don't talk about them. They are scary to me. I can buy the scientific stuff to a point, but why pay a premium because because they "sat" right? And for heaven's sake, why bump 'em a grade? This is where things get scary, and fishy for me.
consider it an art? In any case, AT"s, like art are not worth the premium unless they are signed by the artist.
I just believe that peolple should get credit for their "deeds".