The seller's refund policy is as stated in the auction description, "I guarantee your satisfaction or your money back no questions asked."
You call to make payment and leave a message on their recorder. They return your phone call the very same day. You make payment and the coin is shipped the very same day. They post Positive Feedback for you of, "Fast Payment A+++++++". You receive the coin and are not satisfied with the coin. The above referenced return policy is as good as any to be found on Ebay.
Without returning the coin for a refund, you post the following Negative Feedback
When I review the Keets vs. Dragon thread, everyone was in complete agreement about that transaction. If you are not happy with the coin when it arrives, then a buyer should immediately utilize the seller's return privilege and receive a full, no questions asked, refund.
My question of you Russ is, why didn't you simple return the coin for a full refund with no questions asked?
DCAMFranklin, I don't get it. Do you think it's ok to pull a bait-and-switch as long as you offer a refund if the buyer doesn't fall for it? This isn't just a case of the buyer seeing things in person that he couldn't see in the photo, and deciding the coin wasn't what he expected. This is a blatant case of fraud. Can you not tell that the two coins pictured are different coins? Do you not understand the difference between an Accented Hair and a Non-Accented Hair?
What is your agenda? I've noticed over that last couple of months that you seem to go out of your way to disagree with Russ's posts. Does your dislike for Russ cause you to discount reality just for the sake of the argument? I was just wondering... because if this is true then everything you post on any subject matter becomes meaningless, not-to-be-trusted-or-believed drivel. You wouldn't happen to be a democrat, would you?
On a blatant situation like shipping a different coin than was illustrated, I don't believe just returning it for a refund is sufficient. If the coin has a different color than it did in the scan, fine. If it has marks that didn't show up well in the scan, fine. If you just don't like the look of the coin in person, fine. But shipping a different coin than was shown, unless due to a clerical error, should carry some penalty beyond a refund to those who might detect it.
Otherwise, there would be no risk to doing a bait-and-switch.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Clark, your response was thoughtful and on the nose and then you make a comment about Democrats that kills your message.
It is not necessary to mix apples and oranges to get your point across. Why alienate a whole group of people when you are trying to make a different point?
Clark- We're not talking about any meaningful coin here. This is a $36 coin in a 4th tier grading service holder. The seller provided a logical explanation of what happened regarding the re-holdering of the coin. If you choose to not believe the seller, well that is certainly up to you. However, making up some lie over a dinky $36 Kennedy seems a pretty far stretch. It just wouldn't be worth a large seller's time.
When we put forth effort to stop true frauds like the fellows selling the flowing hair half and Cameo seated dime using other sellers' scans to "sell" a coin they don't own, well that very worthwhile and admirable. But attempting to make a big issue of this coin seems more than just little petty!
Ebay is full of sellers that post a scan of a coin of which they have many duplicates and then actually deliver a coin different from that scan. You know it and I know it! I'm quite certain you and your buddy Russ aren't claiming "blatant case of fraud" and leaving Negative Feedback for each of these sellers. I think you should ask Russ what his agenda was with this seller?
A buyer in such a situation should review the coin and upon finding it not to his/her liking, notify the seller of his/her intention to return the coin for a full, no questions asked, refund. End of story.
<< <i>discount reality just for the sake of the argument >>
.
<< <i>We're not talking about any meaningful coin here. This is a $36 coin in a 4th tier grading service holder. >>
The fact that it's not a meaningful coin to you is not relevant. The coin was purchased for $36. The point here, which you are not-so-skillfully avoiding, is that the coin pictured for sale has the potential to be reholdered by another grading company and would most probably be worth more than $36. Unfortunately, the coin advertised was switched with a coin that is not worth nearly as much.
<< <i>The seller provided a logical explanation of what happened regarding the re-holdering of the coin. >>
So, you continue to ignore the fact that the coin was switched? If you think it is logical that an Accented Hair Kennedy should become a non-Accented Hair Kennedy in the process of reholdering, then your logic is truly flawed. The seller's claim that he had the coin reholdered is a lie.
<< <i>When we put forth effort to stop true frauds like the fellows selling the flowing hair half and Cameo seated dime using other sellers' scans to "sell" a coin they don't own, well that very worthwhile and admirable. >>
Are you saying that a little bit of fraud is ok? Does it only constitute fraud if you deem it worthy? Is there a dollar amount that you can cheat someone out of that's ok with you? Or, does it just depend on whether you think it's a "meaningful" coin?
<< <i>Ebay is full of sellers that post a scan of a coin of which they have many duplicates and then actually deliver a coin different from that scan. You know it and I know it! I'm quite certain you and your buddy Russ aren't claiming "blatant case of fraud" and leaving Negative Feedback for each of these sellers. >>
Sure, plenty of ebay sellers don't post the actual coin being auctioned. Sometimes they mention that in their auction description, sometimes they don't. But, in most cases it simply doesn't matter. A PCGS 2002 PR69DCAM Kennedy, for instance, is likely to be very similar to another of the same grade. Do you not have any coin that would be worth more if it were a rarer variety of the same coin? Are you really unable to distinguish the difference between the two coins in question?
<< <i>I think you should ask Russ what his agenda was with this seller? >>
I don't need to ask Russ what his agenda was. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can tell that he simply expects to receive the coin he purchased, and not be ripped off by an obvious bait-and-switch.
<< <i>A buyer in such a situation should review the coin and upon finding it not to his/her liking, notify the seller of his/her intention to return the coin for a full, no questions asked, refund. >>
Russ doesn't know if the coin is to his liking... he never received the one he bought.
<< <i>End of story. >>
Translation, for anyone out there who's not familiar with people who debate in the same manner as Dcamf does: "I refuse to address the facts of this issue. It's much easier to chant the same old mantra over and over and over. Never have to really think, and never have to admit you're wrong."
You're right. I should've left the democrat remark out of it. I was just trying to present an anology to his point-of-view, and that's the first thing that came to mind! I'll try to keep my political comments out of it in the future.
I apologize to anyone who was offended, or who felt alienated.
<< <i>Sure, plenty of ebay sellers don't post the actual coin being auctioned. Sometimes they mention that in their auction description, sometimes they don't. >>
Clark,
In this case it goes well beyond that. When the slimeball called me the first time after somebody eMailed him this thread (gee, I wonder who?), he repeatedly assured me that I would be receiving the coin pictured in the auction.
Then, after he sent the eMail posted above, where he stated that "he" had had the SAME coin reholdered, I nailed him on it, and here is his response to that:
<< <i>From: "Kevin McNerney" <coinguy@adelphia.net> To: "'Russ'" <russ@compucheap.com> Subject: RE: You Won! Item #1390705780 -- 1964 KENNEDY NTC PR69DC Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:21:37 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Russ, I checked with my office regarding this coin. I was in NY when this coin was listed. My eBay manager "Dennis Daidone" tells me he did not like the coin that was listed in ebay in the old NTC holder. I was told that the coin was reholdered. If the coin is not the same I do not know if it was changed. Dennis will be in the office today. Call me at 561-862-0110 and I will have him in my office and we will find out what he did with the coin listed on ebay.
Kevin >>
Notice how the story changed?
Then when I spoke with him the second time, he had me on the speaker phone with his Junior Slimeball changing stories again. After finally telling him to cut the crap and just tell me if he does or does not have the coin pictured his answer was "Yes, we have it, but it's not in the holder any more. We can send it and the insert".
Either this seller is incredibly stupid, or used to doing business with people who are.
I guess I don't understand why anyone would try and rationalize this situation as being anything else but fraud. If you add up all the evidence the bottom line is this guy is as shady as a cloudy day. I've been observing the board for some time and believe that Russ is a very reputable person. He has a good track record not like Titan Products (aka:Island Rarities:Numistrust:et al). People like Russ and Clark should be commended for their efforts to alert the coin collecting community of such blatant misrepresentation. Kudos!!!! Kevin you got caught. Fess up and slither back under your rock.
If I'm not mistaken, I think I purchased a PCGS MS67FB Merc from these people off Ebay a while back without incedent and quick shipping (at least I think it was Island Rarities).
After reading this story about what they did in Russ' transaction, I don't think I'd do business with them again though. Geeez, if I was them, I'd send Russ his money back, tell him to just keep the coin gratis, and apologize for the whole thing.
He didnt, russ posted a link to it in another thread where someone was asking about island rarities.
The one thing that never did get answered here is............does ANYONE think its a little odd that DHRC only sells PCGS coins? I'm not accusing anyone of anything at ALL! But it does seem a little weird.
PutTogether - CU is selling off all coin sales businesses - Bowers is gone, and soon DHRC will be too. No more appearance of conflict of interest, which is a great move for a publicly held company. Let's CU focus on grading and certification only.
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Comments
You call to make payment and leave a message on their recorder. They return your phone call the very same day. You make payment and the coin is shipped the very same day. They post Positive Feedback for you of, "Fast Payment A+++++++". You receive the coin and are not satisfied with the coin. The above referenced return policy is as good as any to be found on Ebay.
Without returning the coin for a refund, you post the following Negative Feedback
Negative Feedback
When I review the Keets vs. Dragon thread, everyone was in complete agreement about that transaction. If you are not happy with the coin when it arrives, then a buyer should immediately utilize the seller's return privilege and receive a full, no questions asked, refund.
My question of you Russ is, why didn't you simple return the coin for a full refund with no questions asked?
I don't get it. Do you think it's ok to pull a bait-and-switch as long as you offer a refund if the buyer doesn't fall for it? This isn't just a case of the buyer seeing things in person that he couldn't see in the photo, and deciding the coin wasn't what he expected. This is a blatant case of fraud. Can you not tell that the two coins pictured are different coins? Do you not understand the difference between an Accented Hair and a Non-Accented Hair?
What is your agenda? I've noticed over that last couple of months that you seem to go out of your way to disagree with Russ's posts. Does your dislike for Russ cause you to discount reality just for the sake of the argument? I was just wondering... because if this is true then everything you post on any subject matter becomes meaningless, not-to-be-trusted-or-believed drivel. You wouldn't happen to be a democrat, would you?
Clark
Just ignore him. Trolls hate it when you do that.
Russ, NCNE
I couldn't help myself. After months of having otherwise interesting threads interrupted by his asinine comments, I just had to respond.
Too bad about that JFK. No wonder it looked like such a sweet deal. And, to think, at one time I was wishing I'd won that auction!
Clark
Otherwise, there would be no risk to doing a bait-and-switch.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
It is not necessary to mix apples and oranges to get your point across. Why alienate a whole group of people when you are trying to make a different point?
Just my opinion. Joe.
We're not talking about any meaningful coin here. This is a $36 coin in a 4th tier grading service holder. The seller provided a logical explanation of what happened regarding the re-holdering of the coin. If you choose to not believe the seller, well that is certainly up to you. However, making up some lie over a dinky $36 Kennedy seems a pretty far stretch. It just wouldn't be worth a large seller's time.
When we put forth effort to stop true frauds like the fellows selling the flowing hair half and Cameo seated dime using other sellers' scans to "sell" a coin they don't own, well that very worthwhile and admirable. But attempting to make a big issue of this coin seems more than just little petty!
Ebay is full of sellers that post a scan of a coin of which they have many duplicates and then actually deliver a coin different from that scan. You know it and I know it! I'm quite certain you and your buddy Russ aren't claiming "blatant case of fraud" and leaving Negative Feedback for each of these sellers. I think you should ask Russ what his agenda was with this seller?
A buyer in such a situation should review the coin and upon finding it not to his/her liking, notify the seller of his/her intention to return the coin for a full, no questions asked, refund. End of story.
Thank you for reinforcing my observation that you
<< <i>discount reality just for the sake of the argument >>
.
<< <i>We're not talking about any meaningful coin here. This is a $36 coin in a 4th tier grading service holder. >>
The fact that it's not a meaningful coin to you is not relevant. The coin was purchased for $36. The point here, which you are not-so-skillfully avoiding, is that the coin pictured for sale has the potential to be reholdered by another grading company and would most probably be worth more than $36. Unfortunately, the coin advertised was switched with a coin that is not worth nearly as much.
<< <i>The seller provided a logical explanation of what happened regarding the re-holdering of the coin. >>
So, you continue to ignore the fact that the coin was switched? If you think it is logical that an Accented Hair Kennedy should become a non-Accented Hair Kennedy in the process of reholdering, then your logic is truly flawed. The seller's claim that he had the coin reholdered is a lie.
<< <i>When we put forth effort to stop true frauds like the fellows selling the flowing hair half and Cameo seated dime using other sellers' scans to "sell" a coin they don't own, well that very worthwhile and admirable. >>
Are you saying that a little bit of fraud is ok? Does it only constitute fraud if you deem it worthy? Is there a dollar amount that you can cheat someone out of that's ok with you? Or, does it just depend on whether you think it's a "meaningful" coin?
<< <i>Ebay is full of sellers that post a scan of a coin of which they have many duplicates and then actually deliver a coin different from that scan. You know it and I know it! I'm quite certain you and your buddy Russ aren't claiming "blatant case of fraud" and leaving Negative Feedback for each of these sellers. >>
Sure, plenty of ebay sellers don't post the actual coin being auctioned. Sometimes they mention that in their auction description, sometimes they don't. But, in most cases it simply doesn't matter. A PCGS 2002 PR69DCAM Kennedy, for instance, is likely to be very similar to another of the same grade.
Do you not have any coin that would be worth more if it were a rarer variety of the same coin? Are you really unable to distinguish the difference between the two coins in question?
<< <i>I think you should ask Russ what his agenda was with this seller? >>
I don't need to ask Russ what his agenda was. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can tell that he simply expects to receive the coin he purchased, and not be ripped off by an obvious bait-and-switch.
<< <i>A buyer in such a situation should review the coin and upon finding it not to his/her liking, notify the seller of his/her intention to return the coin for a full, no questions asked, refund. >>
Russ doesn't know if the coin is to his liking... he never received the one he bought.
<< <i>End of story. >>
Translation, for anyone out there who's not familiar with people who debate in the same manner as Dcamf does:
"I refuse to address the facts of this issue. It's much easier to chant the same old mantra over and over and over. Never have to really think, and never have to admit you're wrong."
Clark
You're right. I should've left the democrat remark out of it. I was just trying to present an anology to his point-of-view, and that's the first thing that came to mind!
I'll try to keep my political comments out of it in the future.
I apologize to anyone who was offended, or who felt alienated.
Clark
<< <i>Sure, plenty of ebay sellers don't post the actual coin being auctioned. Sometimes they mention that in their auction description, sometimes they don't. >>
Clark,
In this case it goes well beyond that. When the slimeball called me the first time after somebody eMailed him this thread (gee, I wonder who?), he repeatedly assured me that I would be receiving the coin pictured in the auction.
Then, after he sent the eMail posted above, where he stated that "he" had had the SAME coin reholdered, I nailed him on it, and here is his response to that:
<< <i>From: "Kevin McNerney" <coinguy@adelphia.net>
To: "'Russ'" <russ@compucheap.com>
Subject: RE: You Won! Item #1390705780 -- 1964 KENNEDY NTC PR69DC
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:21:37 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Russ,
I checked with my office regarding this coin. I was in NY when this coin
was listed. My eBay manager "Dennis Daidone" tells me he did not like
the coin that was listed in ebay in the old NTC holder. I was told that
the coin was reholdered. If the coin is not the same I do not know if it
was changed. Dennis will be in the office today. Call me at 561-862-0110
and I will have him in my office and we will find out what he did with
the coin listed on ebay.
Kevin >>
Notice how the story changed?
Then when I spoke with him the second time, he had me on the speaker phone with his Junior Slimeball changing stories again. After finally telling him to cut the crap and just tell me if he does or does not have the coin pictured his answer was "Yes, we have it, but it's not in the holder any more. We can send it and the insert".
Either this seller is incredibly stupid, or used to doing business with people who are.
Russ, NCNE
Kevin you got caught. Fess up and slither back under your rock.
Out of the closet Morgan lover
After reading this story about what they did in Russ' transaction, I don't think I'd do business with them again though. Geeez, if I was them, I'd send Russ his money back, tell him to just keep the coin gratis, and apologize for the whole thing.
Dragon
dealings with. I tend to stick to these dealers like glue. Perhaps I may be passing up
on great deals from other unknown dealers, but I will stick with quality and no frustration.
Camelot
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Out of curiosity, why did you dig up this ancient, 1 1/2 year old thread to make a point about reputable dealers?
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
The one thing that never did get answered here is............does ANYONE think its a little odd that DHRC only sells PCGS coins? I'm not accusing anyone of anything at ALL! But it does seem a little weird.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set