1960 small date cents

coindaughter

Tell me about them, please.

Does the m/m matter in terms of value?

Why did they mint large date/small date anyway?

Thanks for your contribution to the continuing education of coindaughter!

leothelyon

Hi
Haven't read it myself yet,
Leo

Small date Centse

coppercoins

1960 small date cents...the mint mark does matter. Philadelphia mint cents typically sell for $5-$7 in GEM BU and BU rolls sell for $80+. Denver mint cents are common. They typically sell for 20-50 cents per GEM BU coin, and around $1 per roll. 1960 large date business strike cents are common for both mints.

As for proofs, the large date cent proof is very common, usually running $1-$2 per coin, and the small date cent proof is considerably less common, but is not rare by any stretch of the imagination. They typically sell for $10-$14 per coin, down from a few years ago when they sold for up to $18 easily.

The small date over large date and vice versa cents are known in proof (two different dies) and in the D mint (one die known which also sports a repunched mint mark, #100). They are the result of a die having been hubbed with one of the designs, taken off the hubbing press for annealing (heating to make the die stronger), then placed back on the hubbing press for another go-round with the other design on the press.

Below is an image I took of my 1960D-1DO-001, 1960D-1MM-100, 1960D SD/LD, RPM#100 D/D North.




1960D cent

coindaughter

Good info; thank you!!

Mark

Coindaughter:

These coins were the "state quarters" of the early 1960s. They really did bring a bunch of people (eg, me!) into numismatics because "You can find a fortune in your change!" Just as the referenced article said, the P-mint coins are a lot scarcer than the D-mint coins. I purchased my BU 1960-P SD cent for $25 in 1965...at about the height of the market. But, at that time everyone knew they would soon be $50 and then be $100 and then be .... so I had to buy mine ASAP!

It's my experience with the small date cents that has convinced me that state quarters will eventually result in some new, long-run collectors being created. Not hundreds of thousands, but surely thousands and perhaps even tens of thousands...

Mark

leothelyon

Coppercoins
The overdate looks EDS. Great coin and pics.

Leo

DCAMFranklin

The small date is EXTREMELY rare in Deep Cameo. The last time I checked, PCGS has never placed a small date in their PR-69 DCAM holder. They had only graded 27 coins in PR-66 DCAM, or higher. A great coin to put away for future generations!

kranky

There's a great article on this subject here. Worth a read even for the experienced collectors. I found out that all the P-mint 1960 SD business strikes were made on a single day.

coppercoins, I'd love to have one of those LD/SD overdates someday! Beautiful!

coppercoins

Just an addition to what I said earlier for those who like to read people's babble about subjects they enjoy...

There are more die varieties (doubled dies, repunched mint marks) known for the 1960 Lincoln cents than any other date or any other series...this, to add to the small date / large date varieties, makes 1960 Lincoln cents one of the most interesting die variety collectible sets to attain. I currently have on file listings for over 180 different die varieties for the 1960 cent, two of which are indeed 1960 small date proof cents (doubled die obverses). A truly "complete" set of 1960 cents alone would number nearly 190 coins and would run in the neighborhood of $1,100 in retail value...just for that ONE DATE! And believe me, selling a nicely put together complete set of this date to others in the die variety / variety hunters market would be no problem if all of the coins were BU and properly attributed.

Part of what this says for 1960 coins is this - truly original, uncirculated rolls are becoming scarce, and people are starting to pay a premium for them. This date is the most popular date for Lincoln cent variety collectors because of the sheer number of nicely visible die varieties - some 125 of the ones listed can easily be seen through a 10X loupe - and 1960 boasts the ONLY mint mark variety given five out of five stars on the public attribution system's star rating chart for variety visibility, and one of very few years that boasts FOUR different doubled dies given four out of five stars on the same rating chart. Most beginners in Lincoln cent die varieties buy 1960D large date rolls for a buck or so trying their chance at finding some of the elusive die varieties, which is really drying up the original material (unsearched rolls)...just take note of that, and we can talk again when BU roll bid is above $4 for this "common" date.

More to follow if asked to...I don't want to type all evening if nobody reads it.

coppercoins

coppercoins, I'd love to have one of those LD/SD overdates someday! Beautiful! >>



Actually, this is technically not an overdate nor a repunched date....both of these occurred in the times when hand punching dates into the dies was the way of doing things. In 1909 when the mint started placing the date directly on the galvano, the possibility for producing a technically correct overdate or repunched date was removed. These coins (the 1960 small and large date combination coins) are technically doubled dies, listed as design hub doubling, which is defined as any die that exhibits characteristics of having been hubbed with two separate hubs with different designs.

Incidently, there is also a little known (but listed in the CPG) 1970S proof small date over large date, which is also technically design hub doubling....VERY rare and VERY valuable. There are also a number of much less impressive and far less known 1970-1971 cent dies that exhibit minute signs of having been hubbed using hubs with the 7 in slightly different alignment with the rest of the date.

kranky

<< <i>These coins (the 1960 small and large date combination coins) are technically doubled dies. >>



Oops, I knew that. I was just still wound up over that picture you posted.

coindaughter

Coppercoins:

Thanks for some very interesting info!



<< <i>Part of what this says for 1960 coins is this - truly original, uncirculated rolls are becoming scarce, and people are starting to pay a premium for them. >>



What do you suppose an original BU roll of 1960 D small date would bring?

coppercoins

Actually less than the large date roll, mainly because the number of possible die varieties in the large date cents is much greater than the same for the small date cents. Since they are available in nearly equal quantities, there's no availability problem with one over the other. I would say $2-$3 for large date and $1.50-$2.00 for small date, and this is considering that roll bid is under $1 for each of them....too low for original source material.

Gilbert

Coppercoins,

Thanks for the education. Not to question your veracity, but, is a "dual hubbed" die REALLY technically considered a "doubled die". I agree that doubling on the hub is "hub doubled" but my understanding of that phenomena is simply after annealing and a subsequent strike not properly aligned, whereas "dual hubbed" is a hub with a somewhat different design is struck upon another. Whadya' think?

edited to add: I agree that both methods impart doubled characteristics onto the die and coin, but I believe that they are considered two distinct entities, whereas a coin can have doubled characteristics because it is struck by a doubled die OR a dual hubbed die.

perfectstrike

I love the 1960 varieties. The 3 proofs in CAM or better are tough. Finding the proof triple die in any condition is my last big challenge. I don't know how many 1960 proof cents I've examine over the years hoping to find one. The business strikes are a huge challenge and a lot of fun, because there are so many! I almost expect to find a different variety in every couple of BU rolls I search.

perfectstrike

coppercoins

"hub doubled" refers to the die - "hub doubled die"...it entails the process of multiple hubbing and the anomaly that exists when two separate hubbings of a die are misaligned in some way or do not have the same design on them. Hub doubling is explained in the same way, as would be "hub doubled master die". It's all the same thing. The parent and child in any step of the process, with one of the two (or both) misaligned, rotated, pivited, offset, tilted, or otherwise "different". There are eight different distinct "classes" of hub doubling (doubled dies).

1. Rotated hub doubling - like the famous 1955 or 1972, the misalignment is rotated either counterclockwise or clockwise.
2. Distorted hub doubling - One hub is distorted out of shape - doubling is usually toward the rim or center of the design.
3. Design hub doubling - The 1943/2P nickel, the 1960 LD/SD proofs - the design is different on two hubbings.
4. Offset hub doubling - The hub or die is "shifted" toward a compass direction. The 1984 doubled ear cent is a class 4.
5. Pivoted hub doubling - Much like class 1 except the "rotation" is at a point near the rim. Also described as CW or CCW.
6. Distended hub doubling - Where the design on a hub is flattened - creates "fattened" devices, esp. near the rim.
7. Modified hub doubling - A device is filled or ground off and changed, but not completely. the 1963D cent with the low 3 is an example.
8. Tilted hub doubling - Where the hub is not set flush with the die and impresses a partial design along the edge of the design.

There is the possibility that hub doubling could share two different classes - whatever works to best describe the doubling on the die. The most typical "dual" class is distended and distorted, where the letters near the rim are flattened and show notched separation. These would be referred to as class 2 + 6.

Other sources insist on using roman numerals for the classes of doubling, but it tends to be confusing for those who do not have much experience at reading and deciphering them. While CONECA may have a die number that reads 2-R-II-E+5-CCW(K10), this is only really informative to people who have plenty of experience at reading them. I prefer a simpler method...a simple die number, hence 1957P-1DR-002. Enough babbling for now.

Gilbert

coppercoins,

I will accept that premise of your argument, and I don't dispute the categories of doubled dies as listed by CONECA; however, I would like you to consider the possibility that there exist a separate class of dual hubbing that does not appear to comport to the eight classes listed, and thus is not categorized as a "double die" per se.

In the instance of Morgan dollar attribution, a "dual hubbed" die is categorized as a separate entity that a "doubled die". For example, the 7 tailfeather design (a type B reverse) impressed over the 8 tailfeather design (a type A reverse) is categorized as a dual hubbing and is communicated as a B/A reverse. There are more instances of dual hubbing throughout the series on both the obverse and reverse, and even instances of these dual hubbed designs producing doubled die elements. However, the dies and coins struck from these hubs are not classified as doubled dies because of their dual hubbed nature, but only when some other element of the die becomes doubled by one of the eight means described in your post.

Can you tell me if CONECA categorizes the 7/8 tailfeather Morgan dollar (sometimes called doubled tailfeathers) as a DDR? Other examples include the A1/A2 obverse (various 1878 with doubling prominent on the LIBERTY headband) and C3/C4 reverse (various 1902 with extra olives). These are all the result of one die having features not present on the other. Would you still contend they are "doubled dies" or simply the result of being "dual hubbed"?

coppercoins

Regarding the 1878 Morgans with the tail feather differences, I believe they would be categorized by CONECA as doubled dies, but I am not sure on that. I have never done a lick of research on Morgans and barely know the subject matter about which you write. According to the technical definition of a class 3 (CONECA would write it class III) doubled die, these coins would fit in that class, but they could just as easily fit in any number of other definitions, depending on who is giving you the definition.

In response to your original post regarding this matter I stated in effect that "hub doubling" is not necessary doubling on the hub, rather on any tool used in the die making pyramid. It can be on a master hub, master die, working hub, or working die. "Hub doubling" as a term refers more to the verb of "hubbing" rather than the noun of the "hub". With regard to your definition of "dual hubbed", I have not yet been exposed to the term so I cannot say much other than to say that all dies were hubbed more than once until recently - the term to this effect is "multiple hubbing". Antonym - "single squeeze hubbing", but I know this too is off your subject. I understand the term you refer to and its meaning - that two different designs were used in hubbing a single die...but this also fits the class 3 hub doubling category. I guess the answer is - yes AND no...it's a doubled die to some people, not to others.

In comparison, the 1960D small date over large date cent has technically the same merits as a 7/8 tail feather Morgan dollar...two different designs used on the same die. In the die variety circle (NCADD, CONECA, and various others including myself) these are technically referred to as doubled dies because the error in hubbing produced a "doubled" design...but that could easily be debated, which is why I digress that both terms are accurate in describing this anomaly. It's not actually a doubling in "the" design, as there are actually "two" designs. Interesting.

Something I know nothing about but would be interested in knowing, are there any other features on the 7/8 tail feather Morgan that are "different", or is the only pick up point in the tail feathers? The reason I ask in because in my images above you can see that "LIBERTY" and the motto were in slightly different positions in each of the two designs which in effect created other minor doubling in addition to the major change, the date. Is the 7 TF design on the Morgan essentially identical to the 8 TF design (other than the tail feathers of course), or are there other significant modifications that would show in the (both terms for accuracy) dual hubbing/doubled die?