Is an NGC 70 a PCGS 69.5?

airplanenut

First off- this is NOT A PCGS vs. NGC THREAD!

With that said...

Looking around eBay, I have found that NGC 70s are much more readily available. On the other hand, they are also going for less than a PCGS 70... but more than a PCGS 69...

Would it be safe to say that they are like a PCGS 69.5, where it is slightly possible that it could get into a PCGS 70 holder, thus it is more valuable than a PCGS 69, but because PCGS may very well give it a 69, it cannot attain full PCGS 70 money?

Jeremy

BNE

I am not sure which series you are talking about, but if you are talking about MS or proof circulating coins, I doubt that even the most perfect would get a 70 at PCGS today. I believe that as a matter of policy, they just don't give these out anymore. . . .

tradedollarnut

well...call me old fashioned, but you might actually have to evaluate that on a coin by coin basis. I bet some are better and some are worse!

BSqr

From eBay that would seem to be the case. Take modern gold commems for example. You can pick up a 1999 $5 Washington in PCGS MS69 for around $250 but if you want that same coin in NGC MS70 you will likely pay $400 and up. Now I have not seen a PCGS MS70 of that coin variety sell on eBay so I can't cite past auction prices but judging from similar coins I think it is safe to say that a PCGS MS70 would easily sell for $900 or more.

That's my 2 cents

baccaruda

i would be willing to say that ALL 69 and 70s at PCGS and NGC are the same but occasionally a few will get a 70 completely at random based on the grader's mood that day. whether they just had a particularly good bite of a sandwich (PCGS fingerprint 69) or got lucky the night before (PCGS 70).

MAULUMALL

To be quite honest 70 is just a #.
Why is PCGS 70 diff. from an NGC 70.
NGC, in my eyes is just as compotent as PCGS.
I have both and to be honest,My NGC 70 Gold and Silver Eagles are just as perfect as anyones ,PCGS included.
As far as price goes,check this thread
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=132882

coinguy1

tradedollarnut ,

At the risk of name calling - you are old fashioned and of course, absolutely correct.

DCAMFranklin

Jeremy-
There is sooooo much that goes into an answer for your question. First of all, PCGS has been giving out the MS-70 and PR-70 grade for a much longer period of time than has NGC. So, far more of the PCGS 70's have been permanently "parked" in more collections. Then in 2000 NGC changed their position of "there is no such thing as a perfect coin". About the same time, the PCGS graders were slowing the 70's to a mere trickle. Then in 2001, for most modern series (though NOT the modern commems), the PCGS 70's came to a screetching halt. From that point forward, any submission dealer with any sense who had MS-70 or PR-70 candidate coins took no risks with PCGS and sent them all to NGC. Further loading the 70's numbers toward NGC. Much wiser to take the NGC much higher price, when compared to a PCGS 69, than to PRAY for the big payoff of a PCGS 70. This created a perception that NGC was issuing more 70's than should be made in any given year. In reality they were just making the 70's they would have made in a normal year AND having an opportunity at the coins that would have normally gone to PCGS!

Though there have been a few 70's the past year and a half, it certainly isn't like it was in prior years. In my opinion there are definitely a good number of NGC 70's out there that are not deserving of the grade, however, I don't want to turn this into a PCGS vs. NGC thread either. Personally, I have seen a number of NGC 70's that are absolutely deserving of the grade and would cross-over to PCGS IN NORMAL TIMES. These aren't normal times. I sold the coins in the NGC holders, as I personally have NO confidence in PCGS taking that cracked out coin and placing it in their PCGS holder. That is NOT due to the coin being less than a PCGS 70. It is only due to their stance about the 70 coin, today.

So, you have a NGC price that is much higher than a PCGS 69 price, yet significantly below a PCGS 70 price. If you are a long-term player, then it makes sense to buy all the NGC 70 coins you feel are worthy of the 70 grade at prices that are very low relative to the PCGS 70 coin. When PCGS begins to issue 70 coins, then you can choose to try the cross-over/crack-out game.

lordmarcovan

It's all hot air and politics. The emperor has no clothes.

IMO, 70's are for folks who like to buy the holder. Do they even exist? Depends on the prevailing winds of the day. Politics. Hot air.

I wonder when gmarguli will come storming into this thread, wreaking havoc as he thrashes and smashes around...

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with buying the holder, if you know you're doing it, and want to fluff up a Reg set or whatever. Did it myself- I bought PCGS PR70 coins when they were $50-75 each, on Teletrade, back in 1998. But one problem with the Registry is that it has shot the prices of such things up to ridiculous levels, I think. I sold all mine, pocketed my substantial profits, and put it into the gold set I just sold.

I downgraded my Clad Washington quarter ONE INVISIBLE GRADE POINT, to a PR69DCAM, and pocketed enough money to buy a PCGS MS62 $2.50 Liberty. And did the same thing with my SBA dollar, which I'd paid $75 for in '98, and sold for around $375 in the last year. Buy an identical-looking PR69 DCAM SBA for the type set for $45, and pocket the rest. Pow! There's a big piece of a $5 Indian for the set.

One grade point on a modern clad Washington quarter can buy you a 100-year old Mint State, PCGS certified gold coin. Does anyone besides me see the absurdity here?

At less than $100, maybe buying a PR70 DCAM modern coin is a good value. IMHO, at anything over that, it's absurd. But that's just me.

BNE

Super analysis, DCAMFranklin!

I concur!

Two more questions: 1. How has the current halt to PCGS' issuance of 70 coins has affected the price of those coins?

2. How is the answer to number one affected by the fact that there is a perception that many of the PCGS 70's aren't "real" 70's? (Indeed, there are PCGS 70s that have visible flaws that make the issuance of the grade truly a head-scratcher, especially when one considers that coins that are perfect under 10x can't get the grade today. . . .)

Edited to add: see LordM's edit above. I have paid more than $100, for many Jeff 70DCAMs (sometime much more), but I can't blame his skepticism.

IrishMike

BNE,me thinks you hit the nail on the head, there are so many they slabbed that weren't 70's or later have turned into lesser grades in the slabs, hmmm I wonder why, that they just quit giving out the grade. We've all seen PCGS 70's that aren't. At least in PF ASE's NGC 70's bring a mulitple of 2-5 times over what a PCGS 69 brings.

DCAMFranklin

BNE-
My response to your questions are based upon TODAY'S pricing environment. That can and probably will change in the future. Oh, you sure have a bunch of people, an abundance of them on this Forum, often squawking the 70's aren't really 70's. That may or may not be true, depending on the coin. However, you NEVER hear the collectors of 70's saying they aren't 70's!!!! That's important!

Unlike a number of collectors on this Forum, I openly admit I like to make money from my collections. I ENJOY making money from my collections. I HATE losing money on my coins! My opinion on making money in coins is to buy your coins at the right price and maybe more important than the first, is to recognize changing trends in demand, therefore pricing.

Over the past 5 years you could pay asking prices, be the high bidder all day long on the 70's and then sell them over the past 6 months and you would have made a ton of money! Why? It is all due to the Registry and the INTENSE pressure the aspiring Registry collectors, 70's collectors, to acquire those coins. Within limits, there was NO price too high for those 70's! That's good. The PCGS Registry brought about a MAJOR shift in demand and therefore prices.

LM's PR-70 DCAM SBA didn't go from $75 to $375 in just 3 years because he willed it. That coin went up 400% in 3 years due to the DEMAND for grade! Do I think some collectors' perception that 70's aren't 70's has affected the price of the 70's coin? NOT ONE DAMN BIT!

In fact, what I have found is that the people squawking the most about a 70 not being a 70 are the people who can't or won't afford a 70. Their negative opinion of the price on that coin hasn't and never will have any impact on the value of those coins. Period!

robertpr

Hey, since PCGS was dumb enough to cut off the 70 grade but keep the grade guarantee on them, maybe we should all go out and buy 70's and send them to PCGS for grade guarantee. Of course, they're all 69's today. If PCGS were to terminate the guarantee on any coin above 69, what do you think would happen to the price of those 70's?

Blade

Robert,
Interesting idea, but PCGS price guarantee doesn't always pay market price. I have no experience executing a grade guarantee other than a few threads I've read here, but it seems the price is lower than expected and some negotiation ensues. Unless you could get these for less than market, you would end up taking a hit.

BNE

DCAMFranklin: Once again, you tell it like it is. There ARE real 70s out there, and they shouldn't be dismissed. (At least MY PR70DCAMs are "real 70s!") There are some questionable ones: don't buy those. But the pops for 70s are low enough, and enough examples are tied up in sets, that supply is thin, and demand persistent.

I feel pretty good about my decisions, but it is always wise to have a finger on the market pulse. I am trying to suss a trend.

There is no doubt LordM is right, too, it's pretty political and the winds of change may shift the line for 70's, turning the spigot on. If so, GULP.

Then again, coin collecting is not the most rational pursuit, as we all know.