Dealer who cracks out coins
tjkillian
Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭
What would you think about a dealer who cracks out PCGS coins and sells them raw? I bought a seated half dime from him as an MS-63, a year later I sent it to PCGS and it came back as an AU-55. The dealer looked at it and said it was a MS-61 and refunded my money. He then cracked it out and put it in his display case as "BU". He says he cracks out a lot of PCGS coins and sells them raw as he says he can get more money for them and most folks don't like PCGS slabs anyway.
Tom
Tom
Tom
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Many of those types explain it away by saying they have their own grading standards. OK, I can accept that... IF you are buying back from your customers at the same grade you sold it as. If someone wants to call AU55 "BU", I guess that's their prerogative, but when the customer sells it back it still better be BU.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Dishonest? He refunded the guys money a YEAR later. How is that dishonest?
jom
I've been buying lots of coins from an old-time collector who can't grade. He lists some coins as "AU" that are as high as MS-63 and as low as EF details/cleaned. I buy the former and avoid the latter, but they're all AU to him.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>I bought a seated half dime from him as an MS-63, a year later I sent it to PCGS and it came back as an AU-55....He says he cracks out a lot of PCGS coins and sells them raw >>
Just curious, Tom, but did you know the coin was a crack out when you bought it and what the slab grade was or am I reading something into your post that isn't there?
<< <i>He refunded the guys money a YEAR later. >>
Did he refund 61 money, or 63 money as that was what he sold the coin as? It's not clear from the post. If he refunded the full purchase price, than I don't think there's any reason to complain. If he refunded based on his "new" assessment of the grade, than there's room for valid questions about his practices.
Russ, NCNE
the REAL issue is: why were YOU not able to tell the difference between ms-63 & au-55? that's a huge spread. it sounds like you need to improve your own grading skills, and not hold plastic companies & dealers responsible for your lack of grading ability.
not trying to sound harsh, but again, take responsibility for yourself & learning how to grade. THEN THE PROBLEM GOES AWAY.
K S
TRUTH
"dumbing down" is just another way of evading responsibility.
WHY are the dealers always at fault??? WHY do we constantly hear buyers complaining about being sold an overgrade coin???
LEARN HOW TO GRADE COINS YOURSELF! plain and simple, it's the first step to enjoying this hobby. personally, i have very little sympathy if someone can't tell a coin is over graded by EIGHT points.
K S
Tom
What if coins had prices on them but no grades? That way, we would all have to know what we are buying and why we think the price is fair. If you are paying a premium over MS-63 for a MS-64 or MS-65 coin, you should be able to justify your actions. The numbers on the holder or slab are irrelevant.
In a few instances I've bought some AU-55 to MS-62 classics on Ebay and when I expressed concern about the coin's actual grade, the seller claims the coin came from a XYZ holder. So, I don't think it is a real "rare" experience!
<< <i>I realize, as do many of you, that coins residing in older PCGS holders were graded much more conservatively >>
personally, i believe that's baloney, & i can support my opinion. in a previous link i described how anacs down-graded three of my buffalo nickels in 1-gen pcgs slabs, one by 23 points. but it's a claim i hear dealers making all the time.
tjkillian, it sounds like you may be more of a novice than what i realized, sorry. but it sounds like you have already learned the most important single lesson, really almost the only lesson in all numismatics, that you MUST learn how to grade coins yourself. congratulations on realizing something that takes 90% of the collectors out there (myself included) a long time to realize.
the bottom line is always that the BUYER gets to choose whether or not to buy a coin. a dealer can't force you to buy one. so it is absurd not to acquire the skills necessary to help you make an intelligent choice.
K S
It is accurate (and also easy) to say "learn to grade" and "buy the coin, not the plastic." However, part of learning to grade is comparing your grade opinions against those whose opinion you respect. A little give and take about how a certain grade opinion is reached is also informative for the learner. The grade opinion on the plastic is a useful opinion for most collectors and dealers alike. Like all opinions, it can be wrong. However, for most new collectors (including veteran collectors entering a new series) it can be useful in gaining the sought after grading skills we all desire.
an "opinion" can not be "wrong", though it can be disputed. facts can be "right" or "wrong", which is why coin grades are NOT facts.
K S
if he does actually crack coins out of pcgs slabs to downgrade them he should be put in a hall of fame somewhere.
Probably one of the most accurate statements ever posted on this board but also a sad commentary on the current state of the hobby. Certainly one of the disappointing side affects of third party grading.
i'd break down approx. as follows:
raise the grade: 5%
same grade: 85%
lower grade: 10%
K S
I do not think this is entirely true. A big problem is that so many coins are overgraded, cleaned, whizzed, counterfeit, etc, that folks are gun-shy. All the collectors I know, which is very few, do it only as a hobby, and not professionally. Can the average collector tell 90% of the time if a coin has been played with? Buying PCGS gives a little security. Grading accurately 90% is a constant learning process that one cannot master quickly.
Tom
<< <i>"opinion" can not be "wrong" >>
You know Dorkkarl, sometimes I just hate it when you pay attention. You, of course, are correct and I seem to type faster than I think. A more accurate expression of my thought might have been "some opinions are not supported by the facts as is the case when XF details belie an MS 62 opinion." Just my opinion you understand and thanks for keeping me straight, Dorkkarl.
<< <i>You know Dorkkarl, sometimes I just hate it when you pay attention. >>
hey clw54, it is an interesting experiment, real similar to the contest just concluded by russ. 2 prob's:
(1) it is near impossible to grade from just a digipic
(2) you would be assuming up front that the pcgs grade were correct to begin with....
possibly a better experiment: an anacs coin net-graded due to something obvious, such as a hole, corrosion, etc. then ask to guess the detail & net grade. i bet the differences in opinion would be very revealing.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>You know Dorkkarl, sometimes I just hate it when you pay attention. >>
hey clw54, it is an interesting experiment, real similar to the contest just concluded by russ. 2 prob's:
(1) it is near impossible to grade from just a digipic
(2) you would be assuming up front that the pcgs grade were correct to begin with.... >>
This should be easy, because it's a circulated example of a popular series. I suspect most will get it right.
<< <i>I realize, as do many of you, that coins residing in older PCGS holders were graded much more conservatively. The standards of grading have definately loosened in later years. I will refuse to crack out a coin that is currently residing in a first gen PCGS holder. Go ahead, let the dealers crack them. Eventually, unbiased graded coins being held in first gen PCGS holders will be highly sought after by collectors as these classics will be forever gone. They will command a premium even greater than the current worth of the coin being cracked out and regraded higher. And we, the true collectors, we who did not succumb to the temptations of a "higher" grade, will reap the rewards of patience. >>
A good portion of those much "coveted" old pcgs holders are still in those holders for a reason: they will grade lower or no-grade
Here, here!! You are soooo right about those old PCGS holders and the coins that still reside in them. They are overgraded yet sellers on Ebay and dealers in their shops will "hype" the coin as being of "PQ" quality with "obvious upgrade possibilities". It just is not so!
<< <i>vam44-
Here, here!! You are soooo right about those old PCGS holders and the coins that still reside in them. They are overgraded yet sellers on Ebay and dealers in their shops will "hype" the coin as being of "PQ" quality with "obvious upgrade possibilities". It just is not so! >>
The ones that will upgrade are drying up,as those that would upgrade have been upgraded already.There are MANY slabs,especially PCGS, where the ink hasn`t even dried on the insert yet, and they have been SUCCESSFULLY cracked and upgraded, even back into PCGS slabs!
Buy the coin, recycle the holder.Plastic recycles!