Another 1798 large cent

Spinynorman

LMV's got me thinking about this again. I've had this one for a while and never have gotten a proper attribution on it. I bought it as a problem F12 and then discovered the overdate. Any thoughts, possible value, or a Sheldon number would be appreciated.

Placid

Go here and look it up they might have some pics, I am to tired now.
Link

Spinynorman

Thanks. I'll bookmark that one.

Placid

1798/7 is listed in the pcgs online price guide as well. Too bad it's not VF or higher.

Spinynorman

I just looked at those prcies, that would have been nice!

dorkkarl

i grade your coin as "fine", probably choice, TERRIFIC planchet & color. congratulations! if the planchet is as choice in person as your digipic makes it appear, i'd say the coin is worth a 25% premium. for sale?

K S

Conder101

Well for starters it is NOT an overdate. The overdates are S-150 - 152 and they are all have type 1 hair. Yours has type 2 hair. It appears to be a large 8 type. Type 2 hair and large 8 means S-165 - 167. S-166 always comes with a heavy arc crack from the fraction through the wreath, the E in America to the rim. The S-167 almost always comes with a die crack from the rim straight into Liberty's eye. I don't see either of those so I think it is probably a S-165. Look to see if it has a triangular segment pointing upwards from the left foot of the second T in STATES. The T was originally punched in upside down and then corrected. It is a very nice coin Sharpness of F-15 to VF-20 with a net grade of F-12 to F-15. Don't feel bad about it not being the overdate, if I am right on my attribution you have lucked out because in that grade the S-165 is worth twice what the S-152 overdate is.

After posting this when I went back the date enlargement finally reversed itself so I saw the figures in refief instead of incuse. It might still be a S-167. S-167 also has a crack that runs up through the right side of the 8 just inside the loops. Many people who see that crack think they have an overdate. I am not sure if the crack is there, you'll have to look at the coin and see for yourself. The S-167 is much more common and is worth about half of what the S-152 would be.

lordmarcovan

I had trouble seeing that enlargement as a positive rather than a negative image, too- funny, the date looked incuse- an interesting optical illusion! That's a very nice looking coin. It may not be as high grade as mine, but the surfaces are better, of course, as it wasn't dug.

The 7 below the 8 in my overdate shows at the left top of the 8. This, as I understand it, is the hallmark of the S-152, which only shows that one top corner of the 7.

Here is my admittely amateur scan of my S-152, again. Note the Style 1 hair, lacking the extra curl your Style 2 has.

You have a very pleasing coin there. I am a novice with the Sheldon varieties (checked the book out from the library to attribute my coin), but if what Conder says about you having a scarce 2nd hair style variety, all the better! Your coin certainly has superior eye appeal, in my opinion.

Spinynorman

Thanks for the input. I knew that it was the 2nd hair style, but I didn't know that all of the overdates were on the 1st hair style coins. That makes sense, though, since those would have been the first dies used.
DK, the actual color of the coin is a little bit darker than the picture, but still a nice brown. The original picture came out way too green, so I played with the color a bit. I was planning on holding on to it for a while, though.

Here is a huge picture of it that hopefully doesn't play tricks on the eyes. The whole area that is outlined appears to be raised, when looking at it under the scope. That's what made me think it was an overdate. If it's just a die crack, at least it's an interesting one! Well, at 20x anyway...

Spinynorman

Oh, and btw conder101, I checked all of the markers that you gave, but none of them matched except the possible die crack inside the loops of the 8. It looks like S167 is the most likely. Thanks again for the info.

Conder101

Yes the huge photo of the 8 did the trick. That IS the die crack from S-167. If there is no trace of the crack from rim to eye then you have a die state I coin. I don't know how scarce the die state I coins are, I've never opened my copy of the Breen cent book. (I need to get a second copy that I can use. I have the deluxe hardbound edition. According to the editor 475 of the 500 copies came back from the bindery with glue smeared all over the cover and they had to be sent back for rebinding. I have one of the 25 clean copies.) Jack Robinson had a piece in his sale back in 1989 that is almost a twin of yours. It brought $528 13 years ago.

Coin Finder

Conder my Delux Breen is number 23 what number is yours??




Also Did you notice how the transistion to 1794 cents still has the Head of 93' coin depicted??

Tbig

Spinynorman

Thank you very much conder! I really appreciate the help and attribution.

I wouldn't open that book either.

lordmarcovan

Against my better judgment, I have begun to gingerly read and use my Breen, hoping for the best. (When I borrowed my dealer's copy before I bought mine, the pages came completely loose from the binding!)

What I think I will do is photocopy the sections I intend to use most, and work from the copies.

Russ

Spinynorman,

Yours looks much, much nicer than mine.





Russ, NCNE

lordmarcovan

I like yours, too, Russ. For the hole in it.

But it's a tad too porous for the Holey Coin Vest.

Russ

LM,

That's not porosity, it's character!

Russ, NCNE

leothelyon

Hey, I have a S-167 but it has a die crack that resembles a cigar. The die crack goes from the mouth to the side rim and back to the mouth. I bought it from Tom Reynolds and he said there were less then 200 minted. Any verification on this would be helpful.

Leo

leothelyon

Sorry guys. I take that back. It's a S-176 and the cigar is scratched in and not a die crack.
So what makes it an S-176?

Leo

Conder101

LM,

When you say the pages came out of the dealers copy of Breen were you talking about his Encyclopedia of colonial and US coins or a copy of his Large cent book? The large cent book has a much better binding than the encyclopedia which is well known for falling apart after only moderate use.

Leothelyon,

S-176, 177, and 178 all share the same obverse die. this die is usually identified by a die crack. This crack follows a line from the point of the bust towards the center of the Y in LIBERTY. This crack is always fairly strong on 177 and 178 and sometimes on 176. The crack is most prominent directly in from of the neck. If you have the die crack you look at the reverse. If both ends of the wreath at the top of the coin end in a single leaf you have a S-178 (Celebrate!). 176 and 177 have a double leaf on the right branch. If it isn't 178 look at the berries to the right of the T in CENT. If the inner berry is up by the top of the T and the outer berry is down at the level of the foot of the T then you have S-177. If both berries are almost even and about midway up the T then it's S-176. All three of these varieties are good ones. The 176 is the most common with around 110 to 150 pieces estimated to survive. The 177 is Rare with about 50 known, and the 178 is very rare with just around 30 pieces known.

leothelyon

Thank you Condor
You have been a tremondous help. The die crack is noticeable from the Y and in front the bust, its a thick die crack (not easily seen in photo). The berries indicate it's a S-176. This coin is from my type set and according to the seller it grades VG8/F12, porous with a little rust. The seller had said to find these early large cents in an problem free chocolate (even wear) state of condition in VG or F grade is very difficult. That they get snatched up by the serious large cent collectors and they carry a premium. Paid $125 for mine 5-6 years ago but waited and searched 2 years before
settling with this one because I wanted some detail in the coin for my type set and I only wanted to spend so much. Thanks again

Leo

lordmarcovan

<< <i>When you say the pages came out of the dealers copy of Breen were you talking about his Encyclopedia of colonial and US coins or a copy of his Large cent book? >>



The encyclopedia, which is all the more reason I'm being careful with it.

I have a friend whose parents are in the rare bookbinding business, and my father is assistant director of a seven-county library system here in SE GA. Hmm. I'll bet I could get it rebound, if worst came to worst. Might even be worth the expense. It is an amazing book, I am just beginning to discover.