1839-0 proof half in Queller - obv die question

roadrunner

After viewing the Queller halves I noted a peculiarity with the 1839-0 proof. It just so happens that I have an 1838 mint state piece with the same or similar mark (s). Located under Miss Liberty's chin at the top of her
neck as an inverted "U" shaped depression with significant depth. It resembles a reed mark at first glance but is far too wide and rounded. Another thought would be a clash mark from the reverse eagle feathers. The surfaces appear very original in and around the mark so I'm pretty show it's mint made. The large color photo in the Stack's catalog shows it fairly well. Any ideas?

My 1838 half has 5 of those marks all in a row and my first thought was that they closely resembled the pattern of eagle feathers on the left side of reverse shield. The center "u"s were bigger than the outside ones and formed a very uniform pattern far too wide to be a reeding hit. Additionally my piece shows luster in those depressions supporting something on the die. After checking rotational angles for a clashed die I concluded that the "U"s pointed 180 deg in the wrong direction and didn't seem to support that theory even though eagle feathers seem to be the only feature of the coin in this pattern. The marks on my coin lie in the center of Liberty's neck, and run vertically at a slight angle. Sorry, I don't have a scan yet of the coin.

And by the way the 39-0 was a nice coin with original surfaces. There a few light hairlines on the cheek and some hidden ones under the toning in the fields but I felt the coin was probably around 64 quality.

roadrunner

RotatedRainbows

1839-O's are very well known with dies rotated 180° so it could have received clashed dies on initial installation of the dies which were inverted. I currently own a 39-O 1/2 dime, 1/2 dollar and $2 1/2 gold all with dies rotated 180° and have seen MANY other pieces over the years including some fairly high MS grades all with 180° rotation. Its obvious that the mint employees had a little trouble in the first few years with installing new dies into the presses with proper alignment.

tradedollarnut

I viewed the 39-O iwith great interest, but decided not to pursue the coin as I was unsure if the two major grading services would accept it as a proof.

roadrunner

RR,

I considered all different angles of rotation up to 180 deg. If they're clash marks from the eagle's feathers they would point away or down from the center of the coin. Curiously, the marks on my coin point toward the very center of the coin. And are located about 1/16th of an inch from dead center on the obverse. Very close to dead center. And the only feathers close enough to center to be potential candidates would be those close the very left edge of the shield and those neck feathers just at the upper left corner of the shield. No matter how you rotate the eagle the only feather tips that point to the center at any time would be the neck feathers and none appear to have the needed wide "U" shape to them. Ejection marks were mentioned but those would have damaged the luster of the coin. They certainly appear to be the shape of adjacent wing feathers.

The 39-0 half appears to have one such feather "clash" mark and it does point away from coin's center as you would expect. Any # of lower left eagle feathers could have caused that one "clash" mark with a 90 deg or so rev die rotation. Not with anything near 180 deg though. If this were a clash mark would it be expected on a trial proof or presentation 1839-0 half? The fields were however very reflective and watery looking.

TDN, Breen mentions this coin (ex-Robison sale, Stacks 2/82 at $13,500)) in his US coin book so I would assume he saw it and believed it to be one of 4-5 known proofs. He also says that all known specimens show 180 deg die rotation. I did not notice if the coin showed this 180 deg. rotation.

roadrunner