What if PSA...
FB
Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
Guys,
At the Ft. Washington show last Friday night, I heard a representative from (another grading company) walking around to dealers offering a show special of "pregrading" any and all cards for $3.00 apiece. Basically, they would put a sticker over the Card Saver 1 with the grade on it. Then, the dealer was given back the cards. Once they had the cards back, they could determine which ones they wanted slabbed and the $3.00 already paid, would be discounted from the cost of the grading service chosen.
What if PSA offered you the opportunity to state which grades you wanted slabbed on the invoice? And then either offered a discount or credit for those cards not slabbed?
I have no idea how this would effect the hobby and I have no idea as to whether it would be profitable for PSA or not. I keep going back and forth as to whether this is a good idea or a bad one. So, I thought I'd throw it out for the board members to kick around.
What are your thoughts?
At the Ft. Washington show last Friday night, I heard a representative from (another grading company) walking around to dealers offering a show special of "pregrading" any and all cards for $3.00 apiece. Basically, they would put a sticker over the Card Saver 1 with the grade on it. Then, the dealer was given back the cards. Once they had the cards back, they could determine which ones they wanted slabbed and the $3.00 already paid, would be discounted from the cost of the grading service chosen.
What if PSA offered you the opportunity to state which grades you wanted slabbed on the invoice? And then either offered a discount or credit for those cards not slabbed?
I have no idea how this would effect the hobby and I have no idea as to whether it would be profitable for PSA or not. I keep going back and forth as to whether this is a good idea or a bad one. So, I thought I'd throw it out for the board members to kick around.
What are your thoughts?
Frank Bakka
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
0
Comments
I like the idea in general of PSA doing this. Here are a few general pros and cons that come my mind:
Pros:
1) Newer (and younger) folks into the graded world might feel a little more secure about grading particulars and the money they spend, especially in dealing with newer/modern cards (1980's-up). Presently, I'm very frustrated in determining the differences in 8's and 9's. I'm not satisfied with 8's in modern cards, because there are soooo much quantity out there. I don't want grading for registerd set commons (in searching for 9's) to be a waste of my $5-7 fee for a raw card that's worth less than a buck. If I send in 20 commons of 84D and get 7 nines and the rest are 8's, it's not money well spent. What are these 8's worth? Not much in my mind. Until newer folks REALLY understand what's what (and it is still subjective!) the pre-grade deal might help.
2) Possibly this would increase the activity of newer registered sets (as discussed above). There certainly isn't much registered activity 1980-up compared to earlier years.
Cons:
1) Someone mentioned in another post about this "10 minute grade" at a show as opposed to having the proper equipment and environment to accurately perform the grading. I feel that this is very true. Unless the "office environment" can be duplicated, how accurate is the pre-grade? If this pre-grading were to happen full-force, would the grading parameters as a whole "change or blend" toward the demands of pre-grading? There is certainly temptation here...............
Good topic FB. I hope more folks respond.
BOTR
There are many cards in my collection I would love to have graded, but these are not worth it unless they were a PSA 9-10.
With PSA not doing ONSITES in Dec at the Fort, this would be a fantastic alternative and financial success for PSA.
Whoever has strong PSA influence should let them know.
Anyways, I still don't see the value in dealers getting the card slabbed after pre-grading. The card's been graded and unless the grades are inconsistent from submission to submission...a buyer should theoretically be able to buy the pregraded card and have it submitted on their own if they want it slabbed. The GAI pregrades that I saw had a seal that was tamper proof...and many people simply want to know that a card has not been altered by trimming or recoloration. It's definitely a great way to get the service without paying a high price.
Regards,
Alan
As someone who collects late 70s material and is crazy enough to send $0.30 commons for grading, I think it's a great idea. It dramatically reduces the risk associated with my submissions. And the one or two surface-wrinkled cards that seem to find their way into each of my invoices would be a lot less painful. And considering what late-70s PSA7s are worth, it would make those less painful too.
The way I would envision it being done is this. . .
1) I send in my raw cards and a check for $3 each and stipulate pregrade service.
2) When the order has been pregraded, I receive an e-mail from PSA with a link to a secure web site.
3) On this web site is the listing of my order along with the proposed grades. Next to each card is a check-box.
4) I check the cards I want slabbed and leave blank the ones I don't.
5) The web site computes the price difference required to complete the order and asks for my CC.
6) Enter the CC info and the order moves forward to be slabbed per my instructions.
7) From the time I complete the selection of cards to be slabbed, it should be no more than X days until the cards have been slabbed.
I think the idea has ENORMOUS potential.
Mike
But I think it makes great sense and would submit many of my newer (mid-70's) cards if I didn't have to worry about losing $6 for a 7 that will resell for $1 or $2.
If someone has the link to the old discussion, please post it. There were several good points on both sides of the argument that were brought up.
Everyone is under the assumption that this pre-grade would apply to the specials.
You can bet that such an offering would not apply to the special rate. Way too much handling and accounting work for it to be profitable.
I'd have to compute it out to see whether it would be worth paying the extra per card you wanted slabbed vs. the current system of accepting the stuff you missed before you sent it off. I would imagine it would depend on how good your eye is.
Mike
I still don't understand why the dealer (not the collector) needs to slab the card.
Even unslabbed...the card is now authenticated and sealed in a tamper proof case. It has a grade associated as to the quality of the card. At that point, it is a commodity. Slabbing doesn't change anything IMHO. The dealer should be able to get a premium for the card even without the slab based on the pregrade (assuming it's a high grade acrd)
The value is received by the pre grade...with or without slabbing. If the collector wants the card in a slab...then THEY can pay the fees. I realize that it's a "slab it now or lose the grade" situation...but for the DEALER...I think the there is little value in the slab.
Regards,
Alan
Why would PSA offer for $3 the same de facto service they normally charge more than twice that? This would make absolutely no sense from a business perspective.
For three dollars you should be able to verify authenticity and condition, but wouldn't get the true liquidity unless you had the card slabbed. Does this seem unreasonable to you?
Mike
I'm coming in a little late and I'd be curious to know who offered $3 for this service at Ft. Washington?
The bottom line is that it will probably never happen with PSA for $3 and in a way I'm glad. If PSA barely makes a profit on a $6 grading fee with a slab, then they'll certainly take a beating with a $3 fee and no slab. The other bothersome thing is that it will probably cause a proliferation in graded cards Card Saver I's. These protectors don't offer adequate protection for preventing the card from getting creased or even gaining some wear from internal movement. Using just a sticker to prevent tampering is probably opening up Pandora's Box. Also where do the non-slabbed cards fit in the Pop Report?
I agree with Alan in one respect. It would make sense to get the cards for your own collection pre-graded and not slabbed. You could wait to slab them months or years down the road until you were ready to sell them. It would take up less space and not have so much money tied up on holdering costs.
The other problem is conflict of interest. This is really no different than SGC's "slab a card for $5 if it grades 9 or higher special" or whatever it was. There's clearly going to be a perception problem of cards getting higher grades just so PSA can make more money on the remaining service.
Nice topic to discuss, but probably a bad idea in reality.
GAI offered this service.
<These protectors don't offer adequate protection for preventing the card from getting creased or even gaining some wear from internal movement.>
Some have argued the same thing about PSA slabs
Using just a sticker to prevent tampering is probably opening up Pandora's Box.
<You cant break it open easily... it's very well sealed>
Also where do the non-slabbed cards fit in the Pop Report?
<they don't...but I doubt the dealers care>
Regards,
Alan
Isn't that what these pre-grade cards are ? Previews to the actual full grading process. An expert's honest opinion of a likely final encapsulatred grade, before or previous to the full, detailed grading process with verifications, references, second opinions, as so on, all done in the proper professional setting.
If a final irrevocable assurance as to the card's centering, authenticity, gloss compare to others of the year, corner sharpness, tilt, focus, minor flaw detection, and many other facors, can all be completely done in "usually less than 10 minutes", while standing on one's feet for hours, away from the home office.....makes one ponder the quality.
Would not the typical serial numbered, encapsulated, professionally graded card inspire more confidence ? If a pre-grade is an accurate estimate, that's fine. If a pre-grade is warranted to be a final grade card in a ten cent holder taped shut, that seems pre- logical.
<For three dollars you should be able to verify authenticity and condition, but wouldn't get the true liquidity unless you had the card slabbed>
If I am a dealer...I love this system!!! I get the card sealed, graded, and authenticized for $3. Slabs...I don't need no stinkin' slabs! Registry...I don't need no stinkin' registry. As a dealer, my cost of doing business just went way down.
My point is that dealers submit the vast majority of the cards...not us common everyday collectors. With the card "pre-graded", a dealer can "sell the card and not the holder". As a collector, I wan't the card in the condition I desire with the peace of mind that it hasn't been tampered with. Under this scenario...the dealer can sell me this and I ALWAYS have the option to buy a slab with whomever I want(PSA is my preferred vendor). Additionally, under this plan, I can get out my 10X loupe and critique the job GAI did (which is difficult to do once the card is slabbed).
The only thing that would hurt liquidity is if GAI overgrades the cards to sell more slabs.
Regards,
Alan
The grade is guaranteed...as long as you submit the card to be slabbed within the alloted timeframe.
Regards,
Alan
I was thinking the same thing.
Let's "dumb down" this process a little further. Beckett for their raw card review puts a tamper proof label over the card. I'm not sure what GAI does (haven't seen it, but it sounds kinda similar).
What if you almost totally eliminate the processing costs? You strictly charge a screening fee, with nothing else involved? What about $1-2/card?
You hand in 100 cards (have to be some minimum) and pay $1/card - $100 total. The grader looks at each card and writes on the holder the expected grade number. Or maybe the grader even hands the cards back in stacks - this stack 8, this stack 9, etc. The pre-grades are NO guarantee what the card will grade, just the likely grade (which will probably be right 90%+ of the time I'd figure).
Ultimately, such would be a service for people who aren't as experienced in grading cards, but it would probably give someone more confidence to submit the cards. There are a LOT of people out there who just don't understand the different nuances between grades, or perhaps even more so don't have the time to bother.
I think a company could probably make money on such a service, but even if they didn't, it would be a GREAT loss leader to get more submissions...
I do understand that GAI can offer "guaranteed" final grades for their own companies' slabs. I am not sure that Beckett offers an absolute guaranteed final grade for their own preview cards if submitted for a BGS/BVG slab. If Beckett does purport the pre-stuff to be an expert estimate, more credit to them. Maybe they can also completely, throughly, professionally grade a card worth thousands of dollars in less than 10 minutes, shame on them.
How much do the slabs cost ? How much labor is needed to seal them ? How about the label and serial number costs ? Probably not too much of the overall grading cost. I would think that the equipment, lighting, environment, and the graders' ( two at least, for each card, right? ) time are the major costs. And I am sure in many instances the grader may need to take some extra time to do a proper and full evaluation of a card. This is, to me at least, why a pre-screened card can not be as correct as a final encapsulated one.
I think I might have just as much confidence in an expert opinion from Kit Young, Bill Henderson, or several other experiened and reputable hobby veterans as opposed to a preview grader who has been working a show for 7 or 8 hours. Could they use semi-rigid holders instead of Card Savers, and perhaps use acid-free paper to seal the non-tamper-proof devices ??
I would prefer to see PSA modify the existing minimum grade option to allow people to set a minimum grade criteria where those not meeting thr criteria go unholdered and are charged a reduced fee such as $3. That would essentially be a "pregrading" service with the modifications I mentioned above. That was the topic of the previous discussion.
Having card savers with pregrade stickers floating around the market would completely destroy any integrity of grading. After all, the whole point of grading was to verify authenticity and grade and then seal the card in a tamper proof holder so nobody can switch cards. If GAI is passing out cardsavers with their grades on stickers, that's nothing more than the 8th teir grading companies who slab their cards in screw down holders.
This service basically provides an incentive for a grading company to grade borderline cards at the higher grade, as it would provide a higher yield and an increase number of submissions. Whether or not there would be an official response about the incidence of this -- people will react based on the perception. Thus, I think that many cards grading 7.5 - 7.9 will get graded PSA 8, etc. etc.
<Having card savers with pregrade stickers floating around the market would completely destroy any integrity of grading. After all, the whole point of grading was to verify authenticity and grade and then seal the card in a tamper proof holder so nobody can switch cards. >
I don't see how this destroys any integrity of grading...they are verifying authenticity and the card grade. Whomever submits the card has the choice to get the card slabbed...or get the card back in a card saver with a tamper proof seal over it. I only saw the GAI pregrades and my opinion was that you could not tamper with it.
<If GAI is passing out cardsavers with their grades on stickers, that's nothing more than the 8th teir grading companies who slab their cards in screw down holders. >
It all boils down to whether you trust their opinion. If you do...what's wrong with saving the cost of slabbing...you're just going to break them out and send them to PSA anyways? I have never bought a GAI card...and I didn't buy any at Ft. Washington. However, I do not classify them as an 8th tier vendor. For vintage cards, I would currently put them 3rd ...behind PSA & SGC ... but it wouldn't shock me to see these GAI's knocking SGC to third.
Regards,
Alan
When the grades pop up on the web site - I can log in using my user ID and password. At that point, I receive check boxes next to each card. I mark the ones that I want to have slabbed. When I receive back my order, I have all of the slabs that I asked for, plus a few cards in Card Saver I's with a sticker on front that say "Not Slabbed - Collector Discretion" - no hint of a grade whatsoever.
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
You go into the convenience store.....pick out the lotto scratch offs you want to buy......but here is the catch.....instead of paying the buck for the card.....you pay a pre-chance fee, of say 50 cents.......the clerk runs the card through a scanner and the bar code tells you that you have a winner......it doesn't say how much.....just that the card is a winner....the clerk places the lotto card into a top loader and seals it with a tamper proof label.
At this point you have the option of paying the additional 50 cents to get the thrill of scratching the little silver stuff off to see what you won.
This is silly
Let's draw a line somewhere folks.
"There's no crying in baseball card set building."
<What happens when people start trying to sell these halfass graded cards at full graded card prices?>
You are assuming that the grades are inaccurate...only time will tell.
<Will you be tempted to go through the hassle of buying one of these cards and then having it put through a real grading process?>
I certainly would be tempted...the slabbing has absolutely nothing to do with whether a card is graded accurately...you assume that there's a correlation between whether a card is slabbed and whether it is graded accurately...I don't know if the correlation exists. I do know that I can easily grade the card myself under 10X...which is not so easy once the card is slabbed.
<What exactly is guaranteed, and to whom?>
The only thing that's guaranteed is that the original submitter has an option to have the cards slabbed with that grade...after that...all bets are off.
<Is it guaranteed to be slabbed at the estimated grade, or do you get your "full grading with a slab fee" refunded if the estimate was off by a grade or two?>
As I understand it...yes...you are guaranteed the grade as long as you decide within the alloted timeframe...no refund is necessary
<People will try to sell you this crap.>
It's only crap if the grades are inaccuate. If it turns out that the cards cross over consistently...then the system benefits me personally because I want the cards in PSA holders anyways...there's less chance of damadging the card trying to break it out.
<Is this the way you want to buy your cards?>
It's not ideal...but it's close... if I am going to break out the cards and resubmit to PSA anyways...why go through the process of slabbing?...I just throw away the casing anyways. Again, assuming the grades are accurate, the real benefit is to the dealers who can save a ton on grading...hopefully this will trickle down to collectors.
Regards,
Alan
With card grading, you are paying for a service. It is not a game of chance. If you submit nice cards, you will get high grades. If you submit cards that were in the spokes of your bike tires, you will get low grades. What is being suggested is an option to reduce the grading fees by halting the grading process if the card doesn't meet your minimum grade criteria. A better example would be a car wash. You drive up and select the level of service. At a minimum, you can select a simple wash, or add premium services such as wax, armorall, etc. Currently grading is set up so you drive up and have to order the whole menu of services regardless of what you want. Unlike Burger King, the slogan for card grading (not just PSA) is "have it our way".
Some have asked for a service to have cards slabbed with no grade assigned simply because they like the holders. These aren't bad ideas. If grading companies want to continue to grow/maintain revenue, new ideas need to be considered to expand the market. If they still relied on grading 1950's superstar cards at $15 a piece, they'd already be out of business. Now that commons are getting heavy submissions, the pool of ultra high grade material will start to dry up. The next step will be lower grade cards. At $6 a shot to grade a PSA 7 or 6, people won't bother submitting them. New options need to be considered to stimulate people to submit those cards.