IS TELETRADE FIXED...

RICK15JK

I'm very new to the teletrade scene. I have been watching a few auctions on the Modern Commemoratives and Early Washington Quarters 1931-1964. I have noticed POP 1 coins
sky rocketing! But when you go to the shows they are much less in price then the TELETRADE price and half never sell on TELETRADE. It seems to me the bidders are bidding against a computer or a person
jacking up the price until someone bites at it.... It not like ebay were you can see who you are having
a bidding war with. I quess that is why I will probably not ever use TELETRADE. Take a 1954 MS68
Washington Quarter a few weeks ago. It went for 8,800.00. for a POP TOP which when I asked various
dealers stated it should sold for at least 3000.00. I know it is not my money. But why are the prices so
high is my question and does anyone else out think Teletrade is fixed somehow.

I hope I wrote this in the right direction

Thanks
Rick

Russ

Edited since no longer applicable.

Russ, NCNE

solid

I cannot disagree with anything stated above!

Ken

jcping

I think many coins in teletrade were protected by reserve minimum. If your bid did not reach the reserve minimum, you are bidding against the computer.

Here is my question:
Are teletrade coins really consigned coins or they are dealer coins? In other words, it is another way to do retail business with 10% additional profit.

gmarguli

It's a giant suckers game.

braddick

Hey! I play (on occassion).

Sunnywood

What you are observing has primarily to do with the reserves. For example, most of the evening auctions end at 10PM. What happens is that the computer automatically bids up the coin to the reserve amount by 8PM. So there is no point in even placing a bid before 8PM, except that after 8PM you cannot place a maximum bid, but rather can only bid by increments. Thus, you are more likely to get sniped. But if you place a bid after 8PM, at least you know the reserve has been met.

I believe Heritage does the same thing ... in my opinion they could ratchet the bids up to the reserve level in such a way as to make it appear that there is competitive bidding taking place.

But if you think this is bad, get involved in floor bidding at major auctions. There could be collusion between bidders, consignors, and the auction house. A consignor can have his buddy bid up a lot ("shill" bidding). Or, for all you know, the auction house or one of its principals could be the consignor. In that case, the auction is merely a bourse in which the auctionneer is making an offer to sell his inventory and haggle with you on the spot.

If the auction house has a common interest with the consignor, you can bet that your fax, e-mail, or book bids will be maxed out. I have noticed that with some auction houses (such as Bowers) I have often won coins for LESS than my maximum bid (if was not there to bid in person). Whereas some other auction houses always seem to max out my bids. So I prefer to be there on the floor. But then you can easily get bid up. In the final analysis, no matter what the auction venue, if you steadfastly refrain from bidding more than you are willing to pay, you should never have a gripe.

Sunnywood

jcping

I also play the game, from time to time. Once for a while, you do can catch some nice fishes from it.

Sunnywood

Rick,

I love your beautiful waving flag avatar !! Thanks for bringing the "Glory" back to Old Glory !!!!

I believe flag burning should be a felony, and should not be covered under the First Amendment as "free speech," although I revere the philosophy behind the latter.
In this one respect I am a total redneck

Sunnywood

RICK15JK

Sunnywood... thanks for your reply...


And about the flag I just noticed it ...It should of been a normal waving flag... it is being fixed asap...


Rick

Aaron04

My problem with TT is that I have heard they sell there own coins.They also know the max bid which is entered by the bidder.What is to stop them from pushing the bid all the way up to the max on there own coins...That is if they sell there own coins on that site.I have noticed that my max bid 90% of the time is reached but then Im not outbid.Seems a little strange.
Also even if they don't sell there own coins they still get a cut of what a coin sells for so take the 54 S 25c for instance.When it sells they are getting 10 % from the buyer and 9 % from the seller ( correct me on that % if Im wrong ) so say the guy who bought the 54 S just had to have it ( Im sure we have all been there ) and entered $8,800 as a max that way he knew because it was a $ 4,000 coin ( just an example,not my opinion on the value ) that he would surely win.Then maybe a real bidder pushed it up to $ 4,000 but no higher.Teletrade would still make $ 760 off the deal BUT because they knew he placed an outrageous ( once again not my opinion on the selling price just an example ) max of $ 8,800 they pushed it all the way up.Now they have made $ 1,672 in fee's and not $760.Its an extra $ 912 just off one coin.Imagine how much extra revenue could be created if every high dollar coin was pushed secretly to the max bid placed by the bidder.
Most people buying low pop coins just have to have them and are possibly placing outrageous max bids just so they can get the coin but what's happening is that the coins in reality are not going for that much its just those poor individuals max bids are being artificially pushed to the top....and some extra cash is being made.
I have no evidence what so ever that any of this goes on its just a possible explanation as to why some coins sell for such high amounts.

RICK15JK

Aaron,

You took the words right out of my mouth.... I feel the same way!!!!

Rick

CalGold

If the Teletrade system works as Sunnywood describes it would allow dealers to try to hype the price of their inventory by listing coins with very high reserves. When the computer shows the "bid" at the reserve, interested collectors are stunned, and begin to belive that the market price for the coin is much higher than it really is. That way the dealer can tell his customers how another coin of like grade was bid up to say $8,000 and use that to hype his inventory to unwary collectors at an inflated price --lower than the astronomic $8,000 reserve bid but higher than the market might otherwise dictate.

tompkins

One problem with the "hyping the high price" scenario. If a coin is NOT sold (that is, the consigner reserve bid is the high bid), Teletrade removes the coin from its history---it goes down as a no sale with no price history. So no one (not even the consignor, I presume) really knows what the high bid was. At least that is what they say. There is at least one Teletrade consignor on this board. Perhaps someone with knowledge of how their reserve works could comment.

Pete

wondercoin

I try to do all of my bidding "live", including via the telephone. That way, I need not worry about whether my bids were run up. However, yesterday, I tested Heritage with a bid I placed in their Bullet sale. There was a 19th century PCGS coin I was after (worth perhaps around $5000-$7500 in todays market in my opinion and I had a buyer for the coin in that price range) and I knew I would not be around at the close of their auction to place my bid towards the very end. So, I placed my nearly $5,500 bid with about 12 hours left in the auction and became the high bidder at around $1800 with buyers fee (a full work day remained for Heritage to see my bid). Auction closed 12 hours later at $1800. My bid was not messed with at all and I sold the coin to a good customer for around $2500, who was very pleased as well. Thanks for the honest auction Heritage! Wondercoin

gmarguli

A consignor can have his buddy bid up a lot ("shill" bidding).

A consigner can bid himself at most auctions. No big deal. If he outbids the book or the floor then he owns the coin again and has to pay the buyers and sellers fees. That's a chance he takes. Shilling becomes bad when places like eBay allow you to retract your bid after knowing the high bid of the previous bidder.

djm

A couple of minor points that seem to be missed. Teletrade does not have reserves. The owner can howver bid on his own coins. If the owner buys back his own coins, that does not count as a sale, and the price is not recorded in the sales results. If you know the auction number and lot number you can check to see if it actually changed hands.

The other point a dealer will always "sell " something he doesn't have for less than somebody who actually has the product.

As for live floor auctions, I've been there, you are bidding against the wall, the book, the schills, and yes even sometimes against your self.

As with any auction set a maximum bid and stick to it. However I have broken this rule many times. The best deals are alway the item you had no interest in buying before the start of the auction.

Sunnywood

Wondercoin,

Lucky for you neither of the following two scenarios applied: (A) a high reserve, even an unrealistically high reserve, set by either a hopeful consignor or a dealer hyping inventory; or (B) the auction house (Heritage) was the consignor, and would therefore have had the right to max out your bid and sell you the coin at your highest level.

So you got a good deal this time !!! But everyone should always be wary of how auctions work, the power that the auctioneer has to control consignments, and the possibility of shill bidding (to drive pricing up) or buyer collusion (to hold prices down).

Sunnywood

Sunnywood

<< Teletrade does not have reserves.>>

WRONG !!! The consignor can effectively set them by placing a maximum bid on his own lot.

And, they used to implement reserves in the conventional way as well. But, not having consigned lately, I don't know if that has changed.

Sunnywood

wondercoin

"Lucky for you"

Sunnywood: As the famous Lefty Gomez once said: I'd rather be lucky than good". Wondercoin

gmarguli

Teletrade does not have reserves.

But TT doesn't start their auctions at $0 either or at least they didn't used to. They start at a fair price which is effectively a reserve.

psxchelly

lets see.. how can i say this....

yes.