In a Nut Shell, where it belongs.

braddick

I think I may have half way promised not to bring up the "Registry Integrity" issue anymore, so if I'm being lax in that promise here, please indulge me.

The issue was raised as to why bother to "Registry Collect" at all. Valid, solid points were made AGAINST the Registry and really, the whole concept behind it. And, who knows? Maybe more collectors will see it that way and the Registry will one day just fade away as a passing fad.
In reading all the Threads/posts it also brought home the thought with me as to why we collect at all? Sure, there are potential problems, and as Greg pointed out- REAL TO LIFE problems(!) with the Registry at it now stands.
It broke my heart to read of a top three set that is all 'smoke and mirrors'. How sad, not for the owner/deceiver/fraud who "owns" the set (the inserts/Registry name) but for those who enjoy the Registry and the personal struggles, whatever they may be for each Collector, and sacrifices that are made to maintain a Registry.
It's easy to mock. It is easy to fake your way in this form of collecting. And for all those who remind us there is no real solution to fixing that problem, you're right. It's EASY TO CHEAT. Case in point.

How proud that "collector" must feel. How smug in his wisdom to built a fake Registry! Point made! Congratulations!
You dreamed the dream. You fooled a large company and all the collectors who admire coin collecting for what it is and the spirited, competitive nature of building a Registry. You can be proud in the knowledge that you beat the system- making many look so unwashed, so unwise!
Good show.

Oh, and one more thought: I hope you, whoever you are, choke on it.

WalkerGuy

Pat - Well said. Those who act as liers and thieves are just that.

lincolnSence

I think Greg just made this story up to get a rise out of everybody! Sure there are jerks out there who would do such a thing. But how big of a jerk could you be to tell someone about it? And Greg, if someone really did tell you they did such a thing, I'm more interested in what your opinion of this person is. Please tell us all what your thoughts are of a person who would make a mockery of the hobby you spend so much time in. Careful here my friend, we are all interested in your set of ethics now.

dbldie55

Not sure if it is real or not, but no one is making a mockery of the hobby. Please do not interchange the registry with the hobby. One exists without the other. In some ways, if this story is true, it shows the true value of this marketing tool.

wondercoin

Pat: Bottom line is you will never be able to stop all cheaters, whether it is in law enforcement or registry enforcement. It was interesting to me that nearly everyone was offended by the idea of verifying sets, even voluntary, non-mandatory verification. Yet, the present system of simply entering serial numbers makes it simple to cheat if one is so inclined and the ability to hide sets makes it near impossible to catch the cheaters best I can tell.

Greg does raise a decent point about why anyone should care what the other guy is doing. After all, you are in this hobby for yourself, not for anyone else. But, Registry has sort of brought a "family" element to that phase of the hobby. I do enjoy watching hard-working collectors climb the registry ladder towards the goal (a few have) or assembling the highest graded set of coins ever assembled for that series. And, I especially enjoy those collectors that do it buying only the very best coins for the grade, while rejecting "plastic" purchases.

So, I sort of agree with Pat that implementing a solid set of Registry rules and checks and balances is important not only for those collectors who are striving towards a specific goal but also for the overall good of that segment of the hobby that enjoys the Registry concept. And, for those who do not partake in the Registry or its ideals, it is not too much to ask to show some respect for those who do.

I am not the greatest golfer and many golfers will privately admit the game is a silly one and frustrating, but, on the course, non-lovers of golf don't kick another golfer's ball or walk through the line of the shot, or take the flag out and leave it lying on the green when the hole is done. There are many members here that truly love the Registry (some not interested in speaking up and being attacked) and I can respect that even though I have not registered a coin set in about 3 years.

Wondercoin

braddick

"Do not interchange the hobby with the Registry". The Registry is a part of the hobby of coin collecting.
It may be a part of it you don't like, but so be it.
There are probably other aspects of this fine hobby some don't like, myself included, but that wouldn't/doesn't discount the reality.

The definition isn't whether it can exist without it.
The "hobby" would and did exist without certification, but it is now with us (a reality) and a part of it.

gmarguli

I think Greg just made this story up to get a rise out of everybody! Sure there are jerks out there who would do such a thing. But how big of a jerk could you be to tell someone about it?

1) I never said it was true.

2) I never said it was not true.

3) Never underestimate the number/size of jerks out there.

4) All I ever said was "Would it really matter if I told you that I know with 100% certainty that the #3 set of a unmentioned series wasn't actually in existence as a set? Many (most) of the coins aren't actually owner by the person who registered the set, but rather they are owned by a dealer that allows one of his good customer to use his cert numbers."

Consider it a real situation. Consider it a hypothetical situation. Nothing changes. I'm still waiting for a real reason for anyone here to care other than so-called trust among collectors. Who is ACTUALLY hurt?



Please tell us all what your thoughts are of a person who would make a mockery of the hobby you spend so much time in.

I don't care. I collect coins. If someone wants to play a big shot on some web site then that is his business. My coins don't change. The people who actually put together great sets don't have their coins changed. All that changes is the arbitraty standing of sets. I could get those changed with enough whining to BJ or David.

braddick

Greg- You make a couple of good points, but allow me to take it a step further.
I don't collect stamps, therefor I spend NO time on Stamp Forums needlessly mocking those that do. It would be fun, I guess- in some slightly disturbing way, to make fun of those who speak of stamp collecting and all the finer, detailed parts of it. But I don't. I simply ignore that hobby.
Now, if someone doesn't like the Registry either in principle or practice (and I'd have to imagine that would be part of the motivation of that "collector" registering a false set)- why are they here?

If you (or they) are so dismissive of the Registry then don't involve yourself with it.
Certainly this "collector" isn't trying to improve the Registry, right? He's just having his fun.

I can see him now: entering those digits on the inserts, one by one, validating the set after naming it and writing a quick blurp about it. What fun!
I suppose pulling the wings off of flies was getting a bit boring.

lincolnSence

Greg - I don't know if you are aware but when an autopsy was performed on the world record holder for the womans 100 meter dash (from some time ago) they discovered she was in fact really a man. Do you think anyone was harmed in this situation? They didn't race for money, just pride and glory. How do you think all of the second place finishers felt when they found out? I don't think I'm off point here at all in suggesting there is some real damage. Sure nobody goes to jail, no crime is committed. But it damaged the sport. Just as with this example the coin hobby could be damaged by these kind of situations. Random drug testing is an absolute requirement in alot of places now. It isn't a trust your fellow competitor environment in most any place. I would have felt alot better if every thread condemned this sort of action and dismissed it immediately. Then I would have said nothing, and would have felt better about the whole thing. But some posts egged it on. Thats not what I expected. So get ready, some day random coin checks may be where this gravitates to given the fact that our own collector base can't agree amongst ourselves as to what is ok or not. IMHO

braddick - good job on your thoughts - you were right on the $$$$$$$$$$!

tradedollarnut

So get ready, some day random coin checks may be where this gravitates to given the fact that our own collector base can't agree amongst ourselves as to what is ok or not.

Doubtful. PCGS would never go to the expense to do this - nor should they. The "cure" should be proportionate to the problem. If the problem is one "collector" getting his jollies by entering a false set, then so what? If the problem is a smattering of collectors storing a favorite coin raw in a Capital Plastic holder, then so what? Now, if the problem was rampant, blatant fraud throughout the registry then that'd be one thing. But tiny isolated incidents of rules breaking does not warrant the creation of a Police State.

gmarguli

Braddick, it's not that people don't like the registry, it's just that they maybe are doing it to stroke their ego.

I fully admit that I don't like the registry as it currently stands. I am not "dismissive" of it. I do not register fake sets. I don't "harm" it in any way like that. I will register my set one day. However, I will register it at the NGC site because I won't play the political cro$$over game at PCGS. Besides, my toned coins look so good in those white NGC slabs. Now if PCGS starts to recognize coins and not slabs, I will register my set here also.

I do like the concept of putting together monster sets. I have a lot of respect for people like tradedollarnut or Stewart Blay or Bruce Scher for putting together some stunning sets. I cannot begin to imagine the time and effort it must have taken to put together these sets. Even if money wasn't an object, the work these people must have done is incredible. However, I'd have just as much respect for them and their sets if they weren't registered or they were ranked lower.

People do a lot of things to stroke their ego. Many of these things are odd and questionable. It should not diminish the accomplishments of others. If the #4 set owner feels that it diminishes his achievement since the #3 set doesn't fully exist, then perhaps the #4 guy should question his motives for collecting.

dbldie55

Now come on. If a coin is not in a PCGS holder it is then inferior and should not in any way be allowed to be viewed as superior to one in a PCGS holder. There could be serious financial harm done if a coin in a PCGS holder brings less money because it is thought to be "not the best" when in fact it is the best as the coin that was once finer is no longer in the holder (quality was never an issue here).

To place the opposing view to lincolnsciences statement about the 100 meter record. If you had the number one set, but knew for a fact that another set was finer (but the owner was not into political plastic practices), would you feel accomplished in your feat. Would your truly feel you were number one and be beaming during the sale of your set?

braddick

There is a different between Ego and false Ego.
We all have a healthy ego. Putting together a winning Registry may stroke that ego- so what? I may bowl a perfect 300 game (I don't- I don't even bowl-) and gain an ego stroke from that. Ok.
Placing a fraudulent set on the Registry and gaining some type of ego boast out of it is kind of sick.

I'd recommend shock treatment.

braddick

-Or bowling. Whichever is the most painful...

gmarguli

Placing a fraudulent set on the Registry and gaining some type of ego boast out of it is kind of sick.

Agreed. However, to me it is no sicker than bidding $13,000 on a PCGS PR70 commemorative that is a pop 1. This is especially true since we all know the history of PCGS and the PR70s.

braddick

<< <i>Placing a fraudulent set on the Registry and gaining some type of ego boast out of it is kind of sick. Agreed. However, to me it is no sicker than bidding $13,000 on a PCGS PR70 commemorative that is a pop 1. This is especially true since we all know the history of PCGS and the PR70s. >>


And Greg, that is where we part ways.
Paying $13,000.00 for a PR70 coin may be lame (by your standards, and mine) but it is honest.
The other isn't.

EVillageProwler

Pat,

I *just* read this thread, and am quite impressed by the heartfelt nature of your post. And, I'm sorry if you feel that something that's important to you has been or may have been blemished.

Obviously, there are many people who don't appreciate the registry in quite the way that you do. They happen to have a different perspective. Like me. I see the registry as a minor event in the great timeline of numismatics. I like the to focus just on the beauty of the coins, their history, and their rarity. I don't much care for slabs or registries. (I care for them a little, which is partially why I involve myself in this discussion.)

You see things one way, and I see things another way. Neither one of us wants our perspective dictated. Neither wants the rules militated against his way of appreciating the hobby.

But, when people start talking about cheating and bringing up financial harm and the fall of society, it's kind of like whipping up a frenzy of a witch hunt to find the Son of Satan.

And that's exclusive and plain wrong.

As for those phantom people with the phantom sets -- however one defines phantom -- I have to say that it's all about perspective. You say that it's ok for folks to chase after Top Pop coins. (That's going after the insert, btw.) You say that it's ok to just buy PCGS. (That's just buying the holder, btw.) Some say that it's ok just to pursue registry points. However they can do it, however they want to do it -- that's what they'll do.

Personally, I prefer not to buy the insert, not to buy the holder, and not to chase points. But, that's just me and my stupid perspective. You have yours, I have mine, and someone else likes the points. (Am I being too liberal here? I hope the ACLU don't try to recruit me!)

Just so you know, the only reason why PCGS agreed with your interpretation of the rules is because they want the coins in their holders. Plain and simple. They could care less about examining and addressing the evils of the industry or of the registry. They just want the coins in their holders.

EVP

lincolnSence

Would your truly feel you were number one and be beaming during the sale of your set?


DD55 - this is a good point and I guess if I truly believed that someone out there had a better set than I but it was not registered, I wouldn't feel all that accomplished - I would know I was only say #2. I would feel cheated however, if that better set was only backed up by false inserts.

dbldie55

I am making no arguements for false inserts. (just to be clear)

WWBillman

It all boils down to.

1. Some collectors want to keep and store their coins how they want. Well guess what, no one is telling you that you can’t.

2. The PCGS registry rules say your coins have to be in a PCGS holder to qualify for their registry.

A collectors need to make a choice between #1 & #2 depending on which one is more important to them.
OR
A collector can choose to cheat the system and rationalize it whatever way they need to make themselves feel better.

Some other registry members will harbor no ill will towards others who choose to be cheaters.
BUT
Others will think far less of a collector who decides they are above the rules and claims they are the enlightened ones and the believers in fair play are mearly PCGS sheep.

So collectors need to decide if they want to be a member in the PCGS registry. Then if they do they need to evaluate themselves and their personal ethics and decide how they want to play.

What really bothers me about this whole thread is how bold some members here are as to try and make the honest collectors who believe in fair play feel bad about how they feel. AND have managed to twist everything around to where we are expected to justify our feelings of fair play or accept the cheating and keep our mouths shut.

IrishMike

Isn't this really a matter of perspective. Of course I don't condone any kind of cheating in anything that people do. What is it that we are discussing here, its a coin registry. Its a marketing ploy by the company who sponsors it, be it PCGS or NGC. They want you to buy coins in their slabs and in the case of PCGS they have to be in their slabs. Nothing wrong with this concept. They have to make a profit, so kudos to them. They provide a nice venue for collectors to talk about their sets, once again kudos to them. We either choose not to play the game or abide by their rules, that should be and is obvious. Once again nothing wrong with that. Where some of us part company is in the importantance of it. If you don't feel its important than you aren't going to get offended if someone decides to crack out a coin submit it and have it come back a lower grade, but leave it in the registry. Plain and simple it is no big deal to us. If you can't understand that fine, but please stop going over board comparing it to every misdeed ever committed on society. Now PCGS had clarified the rules, so if you still want to participate in it, then follow the rules.

I am too old and too tired and in my mind at least too wise (mostly from learning things the hard way) to get offended if someone feels one way or the other on the subject. Let me reiterate its just not important to me. Also please notice I complimented the owners of the registry and said nothing negative, I say this because there are 3 or 4 individuals that always want to misread my posts. Save your energy. One final thought I love coins and collecting them and would love the hobby just as much with or without registries.

dbldie55

Now that PCGS has clarified the rules, so bill can be happy, will they do the "RIGHT" thing and change their propaganda of the description of the registry. As has been seen, TDN is removing his set from the current finest, so the set that is listed will be, in PCGS's own description, the finest set while everyone knows that is bunk.

Up until this new rule was written, I do not know of anyone doing anything wrong. I wonder if some group will start a legitimate registry?

WWBillman

<< <i>Now that PCGS has clarified the rules, so bill can be happy >>


You mean they did it just to make me happy? I must be something really special

If you have been paying attention I was not the one who started all this BS that lead to the PCGS rule CLARIFICATION.

WWBillman

<< <i>will they do the "RIGHT" thing and change their propaganda of the description of the registry. >>


Ya right I guess every other company trying to make a buck practices full disclosure and complete unembellished truth in advertising. Give me a break, who is the anal retentive one here?

IrishMike

hmmm should we take a poll?

WWBillman

LMAO, please don't Mike