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IHC collectors - do you have a shallow N reverse that matches this coin??

LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
in PCGS Set Registry Forum
Rick Snow recently wrote up an article in Longacres Ledger on this coin. We suspect it is a counterfeit. It would help however if we could identify another genuine or counterfeit coin with the same die characteristics and/or contact/wear marks. It currently is a unique coin. If you have a match (1876 obverse or any shallow N reverse), we would appreciate hearing from you.

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"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.

Comments

  • lincolnSencelincolnSence Posts: 407 ✭
    Sorry I can't help here. But what a great shot of the coin. Did you take it or where did it come from?
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Never have seen that on a 76 before, if it is real would that be 76 reverse of the 77? image Could it have been a late strike, using a 77 die?
  • CocoinutCocoinut Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks like it has clash marks (Indian's chin and feathers) on the reverse. Wouldn't that be unusual for a counterfeit?

    Jim
    Countdown to completion of my Mercury Set: 1 coin. My growing Lincoln Set: Finally completed!
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Any photo that looks good is because Shylock taught me how - we both use Nikon Coolpix 995's because of their macro capability.

    If the original coin had a clash mark, it would show up on the counterfeit too. That is the rational for looking for repeating contact marks - they should be unique to a coin, not the die. If other coins show up with the same cantact marks from circulation then we can be sure they are ALL counterfeits as they too would have been transferred to the counterfeit die. According to the articles the counterfeit die is short lived (2-3 coins) so there won't be too many out there.

    I never thought a spark erosion die could result in such a smooth surface but that is allegedly the process used on the 1959 wheat-back that's been in the news - amazing. If I was the counterfeiter, I wouldn't have wasted all that time and effort on a 1876!
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Dazzling detail Tim. Imaging in the raw, sort-a-speak, is the only way to go.

    An article about this coin can be found here (requires Adobe Acrobat). Until another can be found with or without the same markers it remains a bit of a mystery coin even though the experts lean heavily towards counterfeit. It is strange that someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting an 1876.
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • tjkilliantjkillian Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭
    I just checked my 1876 and it does not have the shallow N reverse nor any of the diagnostics of the obverse. I'll keep my eyes pealed.

    Tom
    Tom

  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Tim - I have one question about your 1876 that I need clarification on by you or anyone else who knows the details of the minting process better than myself. I know you have a better handle on it than me.

    From what I've observed all 1877s have two reverse die traits your 1876 has, some much more obvious than others: the inverted L shape above the O of ONE, and the V shape extending down from the wreath to the upper right of the E in ONE. I've always assumed the ones that barely show it are early die states and the more obvious ones later states.
    imageimage
    Tim's 1876 compared to a typical later die state 1877.

    Even Stewart Blay's finest known shows faint traces of this when magnified.
    image

    Since your 1876 example shows it in such detail, does that make a strong case for it being cast from a later die state 1877?
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    image

    Paul:

    Here are pics from a couple coins I own, the upper pic is from a 1872 PCGS64R shallow N, the lower from a 1871 (raw). It has the same clash marks on the reverse. The backwards "L" above the "O" is the chin-neck junction of the clashed obverse die, the "V"'s being the inner portions of the feather junctions. If you look closely on the reverse of a coin struck from a heavily clashed die there will sometimes be three of these V's. On the 1871 and 1876 you can see 2 of these. They are common to all (IHC) dates, not unique to 1877. Check out the heavily clashed reverse on a 1864 at indianheads.org!image

    My hope was that the 1876 was a very late-in-the-year coin as they were getting ready to change over to the 1877. Since the 1877 reverse is a miracle die of sorts (given it's life span for the entire 1877 run), it would be strectching to think it also survived use in 1876. But, who knows.....

    I wrote the guy referenced in the article on the counterfeit 1959 wheat back cent to see if he had any knowledge of IHC counterfeits - will let you know if he responds.



    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • wayneherndonwayneherndon Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭
    Deleted--thought I was sending a PM. Guess that's what I get for staying up too late.

    We are: WHRC Wizard PotoPromo
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Second question: do you find the mark above the O (the "chin-neck junction" clash) as pronounced on any other shallow N reverses as it is on so many 1877s (and your 1876)? I see what you mean about the V marks being so common they would be no help in determining the source of a counterfeit's reverse. But the first time I saw an image of your 1876 the strong lines of the L clash made me think of an 1877 immediately.
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't know - will check next time I'm at the bank. The strength of the clash is variable and can be asymmetric, depending on how the dies clashed.

    Take a look at the 1877's you have on file and see if you notice any "pimples" at the 10 and 12 oclock positions - that would seem to be a useful die marker....
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
    Lakesamman - I would recommend showing your coin to three people.Rick Montgomery,J.P. Martin or Bob Campbell are all THE experts in counterfeit detection.All are very friendly and would look forward to hearing from youI believe J.P. martin and Bob Campbell teach a course in counterfeit detection.Bob Campbell sells coins from Utah and J.P Martin may be with ICG.
    IMO the reverse is from an 1877 and the counterfeiters used a mistake for the obverse.....but that's just a guess.

    stewart
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is only one reverse die known for the 1877 Indian Cent. Surprizing, since the mintage is much higher than the avarage die life of any known reverse. And it never comes with so much as a die crack! Although it is usually found with the die clash that Shylock and Lakesamman were discussing. The coin was shown to Mike Farone, Al Kreuzer, Jack Beymer and I believe J.P. Martin. All though t it was a bay area counterfeit.

    For interested parties, this was written up in the Longacre's Ledger. E-Mail me for membership details.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rick:

    Thanks for the comments - I'm still keeping my hopes up!
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
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