Why Are Some Collectors So Scared About What OTHER Collectors Are Doing With Their Registry Sets?

gmarguli

I find it very amusing (and sad) that there are so many people concerned with what other people are doing with their sets. So much talk about ways to prove that the set actually exists and it is still in PCGS slabs. So much talk about whether or not the set owner actually owns the coins in the set.

Why do you people care so much? Do you people collect coins or do you collect registry set points? Does it REALLY matter to YOUR collection if another persons set is non-existent? Are your coins any less important to you if someone else is using "fake certificates" to gain more points. Does your set become worth less to you if another person put together a "fake set"?

Would it really matter if I told you that I know with 100% certainty that the #3 set of a unmentioned series wasn't actually in existence as a set? Many (most) of the coins aren't actually owner by the person who registered the set, but rather they are owned by a dealer that allows one of his good customer to use his cert numbers.

Would you think less of your set?

Would this REALLY matter to you? Why?

Please don't say it is a trust issue. It's not.

Honestly, why do you people care?

keithdagen

tradedollarnut

Shhh! The witch hunt is on.

Don't try to throw reason into the mix!

keithdagen

TDN, are you hunting witches??? I could have swore it was ostrich season.

tradedollarnut

This whole thing reminds me of the mob scene in Young Frankenstein.

DIMEMAN

Greg,

I agree with you 100%, but if it is a known fact that a set is fake, that set should be removed from the registry and the person should be banned from the registry. I don't even see why a person would want to do that????

I just don't think everyone should have to "prove" his/her set is real!

Jon

EVillageProwler

Ya know, Greg, for a LAD fan, you're ok! Maybe you're still sucking up to TDN so he'd adopt you!



Seriously... Nice post. I've been asking these questions for the past couple of days.

EVP

EVillageProwler

Dimeman,

I think some people may want to register a phantom set to illustrate (lampoon) the lengths some people go to buy the insert instead of the coin.

I abhor the thought of people buying the holder instead of the coin, but would not bother to invest such energy to registering a phantom set. But, others may...

As Greg said, this whole nonsense is about points, holders, etc. It has nothing to do about trust or coins or why we started *collecting* coins in the first place.

EVP

EVillageProwler

I could have swore it was ostrich season.

Hey! How come my favorite ostrich hasn't reared his *!?$ head?



EVP

Bear

If we are going to do Frankenstein, I say,
to the inspectors house for sponge cake.

WWBillman

GREG

What about,

PCGS does not give PR70s anymore I cannot compete with the owners of overgraded coins they should have to regrade them.

My set costs more so it should be number 1.

Its not fair others collect low quality coins and their set is ranked as high as mine.

I should be able to do what I want with my coins and still play the PCGS registry game. PCGS should not tell me what I can or cannot do with my coins.

PCGS has estimited sets in the registry thats not fair mine is better.

Its not fair someone registered their set at the last minute and got a certificate.

PCGS undergrades my coins its their fault my set is only ranked ###.

They don't collect varities my set should be ranked higher because I have them.

The list goes on and on, your question applies to about 75% of the members on this board.

Maybe verification is to much to ask. I could really care less but everyone is always griping about their ranking in the registry so please don't limit it to this issue.

braddick

Why care about anything? Why care about the car we drive or the lunch we're going to order.
Why care if your baseball team or football team is winning (yeah Chargers! 4- 0!)?

Other than filling our bellies and having a place to empty our bowels, why care about really anything in life?
But, as long as we are breed TO care, then why not take what we care about somewhat seriously?
As long as there is a BALANCE to life- work and play and our personal relationships with family and friends, we should CARE about our other interests. It's when you STOP caring it is time then to seek another adventure- another activity.

I care about the Registry. Not to a point of insanity, but to a level where I'd like to see it maintain a certain decorum and civility and that involves all its members playing fairly.
Once that is lost then I'm out.

gmarguli

braddick:

WHY do you care about the registry?

WHY do you care if I add a few coins that I don't own and "steal" a few registry points? What's the harm?

The phrase that gets repeated over and over again is that "you are only cheating yourself". Well, if this is true then why do you or others care? Do you really care that Jimmy Smith is cheating himself by adding a few Walking Liberty halves that he doesn't own to his set. He is only cheating himself, yet so many people supposedly care. I want to know why. Actually, I know why. I want them to realize why.

Why aren't people just honest about it.

braddick

Greg, I am being honest about it. I've been honest, probably to a fault, all along with this topic.
I care. I care the same way I care that Coin doctors don't win. I care in the sense I don't want cheats on eBay to win. I care because cheating is wrong. Cheating in the Registry may appear to be a victimless crime, but it's not.
My coins are indirectly affected by others cheating.

Would you care if I was able to counterfeit (successfully!) PCGS holders and I began to switch coins? I'd be careful- I'd only replace MS64 coins in those "MS65" holders.
I woudln't be greedy- I promise!

Would you care? Why? Why should you? It doesn't effect your coins.
Same reasoning Greg.
I'm all about driving the cheats and frauds out of this hobby. Whether that's with the dude on eBay selling 1916-P dimes with glued on "D's" or someone registering a bunch of fake coins (inserts a Dealer owns).
That's why i care. And I'm being honest about it.

dbldie55

I used to care because the registry was about the "Finest Coin Sets in Existance". Now it is only about plastic, as clarified by PCGS, so I no longer care if someone cheats the system.

braddick

1- It isn't 'only about the plastic', just like it would be unfair to classify your collecting as 'only about the grade'.

2-You don't have to care about PCGS to care about the integrity of the Registry. What about your friends in this hobby that enjoy the Registry? How about "caring" about them? -Forget PCGS. They'll survive just fine with or without the Registry. Quite frankly, they don't need you to care, nor are they probably even asking.

It's my friends within the Registry- those I met up at Long Beach. Real live people who collect outside of the Registry and but also enjoy a part of their endeavors within the Registry. I care about them.

DeepCoin

Collecting will always be about the coins for me. I could care less if someone cheats to get an extra point. I will never have an all time set (unless I start buying lottery tickets). The registry is a way to share your set with fellow collectors.

The Merc collectors here cheer and root each other on. We have a camaraderie (sp?) based on our love of our favorite coin. It is sad that others seek to decieve or cheat, but in the end it matters not to me. My sadness is more that someone feels the need to do these things over something that should be a joy.

The whole my set is better than yours can get way out of hand, but only if you let it. The thrill of the chase and appreciation of others sets is where I am. But I do care what my fellow collectors are doing, in so much as I want them to find beautiful Mercs to complete their set.. and share those discoveries with the rest of us who are also looking.

IrishMike

I can't find much to disagree with in Greg's comments. Maybe I would care more about the registry if they had a list of coins that were recently added. NGC has started doing this and at first I thought so what. Now I find myself going there first to see who is doing what to their sets. Now I find myself looking at their sets. This has really become, I have discovered some beautiful coins. For example one of the participants added two beautifully toned V nickels. I stumbled across a couple of these at a local coin show 2 weeks ago. Come on Braddick I am waiting for you to start a thread, should PCGS publish on a seperate page the new additions. On second better not, because the koolaid drinkers will be out in full force against it because PCGS didn't do it first.

Fairlaneman

Rick:

I just might have that 31P in MS66 you are looking for. Just won a 64FB coin in a auction.

Opps, hold on I cannot sell the 66 coin to you because I am a Registry Participant and Collect plastic and numbers only. The 64 will down grade my set and loose points. Sorry that I spoke too soon without checking the Numbers first.

Braddick:

I really liked the Post on Careing.

Ken

EVillageProwler

Yes, it is sad that some might cheat. Yes, we should care about the sandbox in which we and our friends play. But, let's talk about proportion. Is it proportional that we got so concerned about cheating, and the messing up of our sandbox and the unfair depriving of points from our friends?

Come now, folks, let's all examine the magnitude of the problem.

Do we remember a few years back the controversy over flag burning? And, the arguments over this got quite heated from sea to shiny sea? Politicos shouted their Americanism and took a position. In the end, there was no pressing issue. There was no rash of flag burning across our country. It was merely one or two quite isolated incidents, and then the issue died away as soon as people stopped caring about it.

Suppose for a moment that BJ didn't issue a clarification, or even that she issued a liberal interpretation of the rules of the game. I highly doubt that that would result in a rash of insert-mongering and coin de-slabbing. In the end, the huge majority of us love our coins enough to actually want to own the coins, and we're rational enough not to want to de-slab. And, those few incidents of inserts and raw coins probably wouldn't have affected the integrity of the system in any noticable way.

IMO.

EVP

WWBillman

My last post where I said I could care less was my frustration showing.

Why CARE?

If you see a thief breaking into your neighbor’s home do you just close your blinds and not care because it’s not your house?
No. Why, because it’s your neighborhood where you live, play and feel safe.

If you are proud of your collection and choose to showcase it in the PCGS registry and establish relationships with fellow collectors to further enjoy the hobby you have come to love through the registry why care if someone else makes a mockery of it or ruins the integrity of the registry? They don't care so why should anyone else? Why care when you go to a show or coin club meeting and spark a conversation with another collector you have never meet before and bring up the registry and he laughs and tells you its a joke and can't understand why you would register your collection there?

Hell why care about anything that does not directly affect you? Lets let all the uncaring disgruntled people in the world ruin everything. Lets let them intimidate and bash everyone so then no one will care or the ones who do will just quit and leave out of frustration. Why strive to improve anything you are involved in?

A better idea why don't everybody that does not care just not play instead of ruining it for everyone else? This would be a much better place if everyone who does not care would just leave.

My question to you. WHY is everyone that does not care even here? If you do not care why would you waste your time here?

lincolnSence

EVP - without this issue coming up and getting some conversation going we would be left to read about some 3 dollar coin on ebay. Yeah, and some pictures - big deal. Why is it a negative that people collect HIGH grade coins - Oh, you refer to them as "PLASTIC" collections. The mockery of why a registry is important to someone should be obvious. They try to collect the highest graded coins they can. This means they collect the finest graded coins they can. Thats what the grade is supposed to be about. Yeah, sometimes the grade is off a little. Once again, my position is that PCGS does a good job overall. When you get the job let me know and then you can tell me how bad it really is. Until then in general the higher the grade the BETTER the coins. If someone is willing to pay for them and play the registry game then you should respect it. Look at the recent showdown. These were the finest sets assembled. Look at the pictures. These people collected the highest graded coins and guess what - they are the finest coins out there. Its insulting to question why people collect the finest things available only to be critized by people who don't collect the same way. Go back to what your mother told you - if you don't have something nice to say say nothing.

tradedollarnut

lincolnscence: That was a little harsh, don't you think? I don't interpret EVP's remarks as a wholesale attack on the Registry, but rather a bit of proportionalism.

You can hardly compare storing a coin like the Childs 1804 raw and at the same time having it on the Registry with someone breaking into your neighbor's house. It's kind of like awarding a life sentence for stealing a piece of pizza.

goose3

Referring to LS's post.

I found that no matter what coins/cars/anything for that matter that someone owns, there is always someone out there with something nicer, faster, better.

The indian sets at LB are the finest ones that anyone knows of.

I don't take the registry too seriously because of my first rule above. I do enjoy looking at a lot of the sets and do so with amazement.

I do have 1 registry set. (MS FE's) As anyone can see, mine is not stellar by any means. Sure I could upgrade my AU55's and 53 and my 8/7 but why?? I want mine to be circulated so that they don't blow my 1856 away.

I'm not knocking anyone's sets because surely those (IHC) are spectacular.


For all the people with sets assembled on the registry I would guess there are 10x that amount that are not and who knows what some of these people may have!!!!

EVillageProwler

To LincolnSence:

I'm more than slightly befuddled as to why you directed that verbiage about high grade coins at me. I have nothing against people who pursue coins of such magnificence. (I personally don't pursue super-grade coins, but that's a reflection of my collecting strategy and my wallet size.)

There should be no doubt amongst the folks here that TDN and I are friends. Do I look down on him for having MS68 Trade Dollars? Heck no! I do get annoyed at him when he won't give me even a single specimen, but that's more a product of my greed and living in fantasy-land.

To others:

I support your desire to want to rid the Earth of injustice wherever and however it may exist. But, at some point, you must realize that not all matters are worth fighting with the same degree of vim and vigor. For example, you would fight to the death to save your child from a kidnapper, but you'd probably only do very little if some passerby spit on your sidewalk.

It's about proportionality, and different people view things in different ways. I'll betcha that a large number of us will not equate the ``cheating'' in the registry game with breaking and entering. And, let's keep in mind that there is simply no evidence that this fear of cheating has even amounted to anything more than mere fear.

So, please don't say that we don't care as if we're a bunch of anti-social cretins. Rather, just assume that we don't view this matter in quite the same way as others. If we saw someone breaking into our neighbor's home, you betcha we'd be on the phone to the police.

And, once again, please remember that we're entitled to our view of what is proportional. That we differ from you doesn't necessarily mean you get to judge us negatively.

EVP

EVillageProwler

Finally, it would be nice if we can limit ourselves to the merits of the debate. Attacking one's character -- directly or indirectly -- is quite unbecoming, and also serves very little to reaching common ground.

EVP

Russ

For me, the registry is all about fun. To be concerned about the possibility that others may, or may not, be cheating would detract from that fun. Thus, I feel no concern.

I do wish, though, that PCGS would get off their butt and get the 1964 proof sets up. I have the coins ready for my fleeting moment at the top.

Russ, NCNE

gmarguli

I care in the sense I don't want cheats on eBay to win.

You're confusing cheats with criminals.


Cheating in the Registry may appear to be a victimless crime, but it's not.

Who is hurt? How are they hurt.

If there is a victim then there should be laws against it. If I reveal any registry cheats I know will you be arresting them?



My coins are indirectly affected by others cheating.

Really? How? Do your coins become less valuable? Do they become less special to you and the collecting community? Do they become lower grades? How are your coins affected?

Your registry standing might be affected, but not your coins. Your coins are just as great and special as they were before the person cheated in the registry.

The only way people are affected is if they are buying coins solely for the registry points and they don't get to climb the ladder as fast.



Would you care if I was able to counterfeit (successfully!) PCGS holders and I began to switch coins? I'd be careful- I'd only replace MS64 coins in those "MS65" holders.
I woudln't be greedy- I promise!

This is screwing people. This is a crime. There is an actual victim that lost actual money. Not so of cheating in the registry. No one loses money. No one is a victim. It's an extremely minor annoyance at best. It's not life-n-death like some people here seem to think it is. It's not the end of the hobby. It's a nothing and meaningless thing.


I'm all about driving the cheats and frauds out of this hobby.

Frauds absolutely. Get rid of them. Throw them in jail. They create victims.

Cheats? Registry cheats? Who are the victims? Is adding a "phantom coin" to your set any different than lying to your neighbor about how much money you make? Are you going to scour your neighborhood (sandbox) looking for these cheats and expose them or better yet throw them in jail? Why not?

Life isn't fair. Not everyone will play by the ever changing rules. Some people will piss and moan. Some will come here complaining that X coin is overweighted and Y coin is underweighted. Some will complain that wonder coins are given too much/little weight. Some will go crying to BJ that Z coin should/shouldn't be in this set. Others will just collect great coins that are special to them. Who do you want to be? You can't be both.

If I registered my set it would probably rank rather high (top 10). If I were to find out that several cheaters were aheard of me, it would not bother me at all. If I knew that I could move up 5 spots if the "phantom coins" were removed for the other sets, I wouldn't care at all. Nothing about my coins changes. I bought the coins for me, not the PCGS registry, not the registry set points, and not for the ability to get a higher ranked set than someone else. I bought the coins because I think they are great. The people complaining need to ask themselves why they bought their coins. There is nothing wrong with being competitive and wanting to be #1, but do it for the right/real reasons.

braddick

It's a manipulation and it's wrong.
If a valid, top five set is offered for sale it'll receive better play then if a couple of bogus fraudulent sets are registered, driving the 'good' set to #7.

The bigger question:
What would motivate someone to falsely register a set? Why? What jollies does that "collector" take in doing so? If it is to mock the Registry, well, as stated above- good for you! Joke's on us.
If it is to make a point- alright then. Point taken: It is easy to cheat. Cool.
Now what? All that wasted effort and time to post a fake set.

If there ever was a time to use the (albeit, worn out) phrase, "get a life" this would be it.

dbldie55

<< <i>It's a manipulation and it's wrong.
If a valid, top five set is offered for sale it'll receive better play then if a couple of bogus fraudulent sets are registered, driving the 'good' set to #7. >>



Interesting observation especially when you read the thread that started it all. If a "bogus" set drives your set down, it may make the set worth less (and this is bad), but if a higher ranked set has a legitimate coin, that is not in the holder, you feel that should be removed so your set moves up and is therefore valued more. (even though you know full well your set is not deserving of the position). I am now clear on the motivation of some for not wanting certain coins listed in the registry.

gmarguli

If a valid, top five set is offered for sale it'll receive better play then if a couple of bogus fraudulent sets are registered, driving the 'good' set to #7.

Highly doubtful. The coins exist. It's just a question of whether the set owner actually has those coins. The set being sold will be valued on condition and rarity of each coin in that set. I cannot imagine someone saying that I'll give you $100,000 for that set because it is #5, oops wait, it is now #7 so I'll only give you $80,000.


What would motivate someone to falsely register a set?

Ego. The same thing that would convince many forum members here to buy coins they don't liike because they are included in their so-called set (Barbers frequently are mentioned) or the same thing that would convince people to upgrade a coin based only on the slab number.

tradedollarnut

The idea that the ranking of a registry set adds value to the set is totally false. I would not get one thin $ more for my set than the individual coins on their own could justify.

I must ask, Braddick - do you ever exceed the speed limit? I sure you do. Why? For personal convenience, inattentiveness, to keep up with traffic flow, etc? Do you know the consequences of speeding? Ticket, higher insurance rates, increased potential for accident. And yet you still do it. Why? Isn't it against the rules?

But it's a minor infraction of the rules and the consequences (odds of them actually occuring) are quite remote. So people do it and it's not the end of the world. Somewhat like cracking and storing raw a coin on a registry. Against the rules but with low odds of consequences and certainly not the end of the world.

braddick

Greg- Your arguement reminds me of the guy who got dropped off at about the 25 mile mark for the Boston marathon and simply ran the last 1.2 miles to end up "winning". (Well, until it was discovered what he had done.)

This story may be meaningless to you and me, afterall we're not runners and we certainly don't compete in marathons. But, it is still wrong. No one probably lost money that day nor was the second place finisher any less fast at running.

The world is currupt enough as it is, why add to it in our simple little Registry?

lincolnSence

TDN - I disagree. And I bet when and if you list your set you claim its a #1 registry set. Anybody would do that if they had a top set. And in fact, when the top sets go to auction they generally get much more attention, and higher values. More marketing dollars are spent and a better crowd gathers to bid. Just the holder in the lincoln series is driving the pricing, much less the registry rankings. I think you missed on this one.

gmarguli

when the top sets go to auction they generally get much more attention, and higher values

Because they generally contain top pop coins and pop 1 coins that other collectors are looking for. The fact that the set ranked #1 didn't create extra value. The fact that the set contained highly desired low pop coins is what drove the value up.

EVillageProwler

Interesting observation especially when you read the thread that started it all. If a "bogus" set drives your set down, it may make the set worth less (and this is bad), but if a higher ranked set has a legitimate coin, that is not in the holder, you feel that should be removed so your set moves up and is therefore valued more. (even though you know full well your set is not deserving of the position). I am now clear on the motivation of some for not wanting certain coins listed in the registry.

This is pretty friggin' nauseating! Hypocrisy reigns supreme here. All those who cry foul for idealistic reasons (like how it's bad when you have a thief breaking into your neighbors house) should allow real, non-phantom sets because the owner has the right to choose to display them how he wants.

All those who cried foul because they're afraid of losing money should just admit that they'll do anything to make a buck. Even if that's illusory. Just remember: if a thief breaks into my house, I will not be giving you a reward for calling the cops. Will you still call the cops?

Does anyone here really know why BJ made the rules as she did? Because she works for PCGS, and they always want the nice coins in PCGS holders. There is no other ideal to them but market share.

It's all about money.

All those who claim that it's about righting wrongs and stopping cheaters can just tell it to my posterior nether orifice.

EVP

EVillageProwler

LincolnSence:

Are you honestly saying that if TDN didn't have his set registered anymore, then his coins would fetch less? I hope you didn't say that, because that would be like saying that *every* person interested in his coins are idiots and can't judge quality on his own.

Do you realize that his coins have always been very expensive -- even before the advent of the registry? You may not believe this, but great coins have always been great, but the registry is only a few to several years old.

EVP

braddick

EVP- Your example of a thief breaking into a neigbor's home doesn't just cost that neighbor money- it also costs you.
Either in social programs, the criminal justice system or simply in raising YOUR insurance rates, crime cost ALL of us either directly (that neighbor, in your example) or indirectly. We ALL pay.

tradedollarnut

I don't think anyone is actually stating that it's not wrong to put a false set up. Just like it's wrong to exceed the speed limit. Or store the Childs 1804 raw and have it on a Registry.

Looks to me like we are arguing over whether it's a misdemeanor (speeding ticket) or felony (breaking and entering).

braddick

<< <i>I don't think anyone is actually stating that it's not wrong to put a false set up. Just like it's wrong to exceed the speed limit. Or store the Childs 1804 raw and have it on a Registry. Looks to me like we are arguing over whether it's a misdemeanor (speeding ticket) or felony (breaking and entering). >>


Speeding is an infraction.

Spooly

yawn

tradedollarnut

Spooly - how can you say so much in one little word??

EVillageProwler

Speeding is an infraction.

What is driving 35 mph in a residential area? I know the fine varies, but what kind of infraction is it? (It's been a while since I got a speeding ticket.)

Or, is ``infraction'' a technical term...

EVP

tradedollarnut

Infraction is a technical term - less than misdemeanor. I couldn't remember the term, so I used "poetic license" in making my point earlier.

Yes it's wrong to mess with the Registry. But let's have perspective about whether something is an infraction, a misdemeanor or a felony. Let's not send a guy to jail for the rest of his life for stealing a piece of pizza. And let's not create a huge impediment to enjoying the Registry over the potential for infractions!!!!

I love it when I write "Cop talk", don't you?!

EVillageProwler

I love it when I write "Cop talk", don't you?!

Oh, God, I'm getting one of my physical reactions!

BTW, this whole episode reminds me of Monty Python's Holy Grail skit about the witch hunt... Sure, evil is bad, but ...

EVP

gmarguli

Gee, if I had thought my post would be so controversial I wouldn't have made it.

tradedollarnut

I'm with the Registry Police - your Lupins or your life!

braddick

Can't arrest on an infraction. Law enforcement may only cite. Glass on the beach- speed; stop signs- you get the idea.
Misdemeanor is either a citable or arrestable crime. It also is a crime that doesn't need to be witnessed in the presence of Law Enforcement (ie: Running a stop sign- cop's got to see it happen. Theft of a wallet- cop doesn't need to witness it happening-).
The police can either arrest or not arrest for misdemeanors (mostly- there are exceptions, for example, citizen's arrest)- it's discretionary.

Felonies? Either in my presence or not- MUST arrest (but then why wouldn't I want to?).

braddick

Spooly: Cover your mouth. What? You raised in a barn?!

WWBillman

OK you are right my thief breaking into the neighbors house was over the top.

It all boils down to.

1. Some collectors want to keep and store their coins how they want. Well guess what, no one is telling you that you can’t.

2. The PCGS registry rules say your coins have to be in a PCGS holder to qualify for their registry.

A collectors need to make a choice between #1 & #2 depending on which one is more important to them.
OR
A collector can choose to cheat the system and rationalize it whatever way they need to make themselves feel better.

Some other registry members will harbor no ill will towards others who choose to be cheaters.
BUT
Others will think far less of a collector who decides they are above the rules and claims they are the enlightened ones and the believers in fair play are mearly PCGS sheep.

So collectors need to decide if they want to be a member in the PCGS registry. Then if they do they need to evaluate themselves and their personal ethics and decide how they want to play.

What really bothers me about this whole thread is how bold some members here are as to try and make the honest collectors who believe in fair play feel bad about how they feel. AND have managed to twist everything around to where we are expected to justify our feelings of fair play or accept the cheating and keep our mouths shut.

tradedollarnut

how bold some members here are as to try and make the honest collectors who believe in fair play feel bad about how they feel

I am an honest collector and I believe in fair play. I just don't believe the magnitude of the alleged offenses are any more than an infraction. The proposed remedies and attitudes are out of whack with the alleged events, in my opinion.

Or perhaps I should put it another way: I am only on the Registry to share my collection with other collectors. I don't give a rat's patootie about points, contests, awards (ok - sure - the plaque looks nice), etc. If I have too much hassle over having my sets up, I'll just take them down. I don't much care either way. I imagine that there's a significant portion of Registry members who feel just like me.

It's about the darn coins! Have we lost sight of that fact already???