Dipped vs. Cleaned?

fcloud

I have seen a few comments in the threads about dipping coins. To me a dipped coin is a cleaned coin. Do you think dipping is acceptable? Even though I prefer blast white for my silver coins, I would rather see some discoloration/toning vs dipped. Doesn't dipping ruin the original mint luster by etching the surface? What are your thoughts?

Tony

Russ

<< <i>Do you think dipping is acceptable? >>



Yes.



<< <i>Doesn't dipping ruin the original mint luster by etching the surface? >>



No. Does this look like it lost any luster?



That coin looked like crap before it was dipped.

Russ, NCNE

fcloud

Russ,

That coin is EXCELLENT!

Then to expand my question if I may.

PCGS has a no grade description #92 Cleaning. What do they not grade for cleaning? Is dipping considered conservation?

Tony

airplanenut

Dipping will remove something like PVC or ugly toning and can increase a value...

Cleaning is like dipping, but the coin gets rubbed a lot... you will see lots of distracting hairlines, which show a coin has been cleaned... that is how it is considered damage.

Jeremy

Russ

<< <i>PCGS has a no grade description #92 Cleaning. What do they not grade for cleaning? Is dipping considered conservation? >>



I consider proper dipping conservation. There are plenty of people who disagree with that, though, and consider dipping in the same light as harsh cleaning. But, doing it wrong can screw up a coin.

Many of the proofs I've submitted have been dipped and, so far, I've never had a body-bag for cleaning. <Knock on wood.> I should note, though, that I practiced on dozens of coins first until I was certain of tecnique. Then, and only then, did I dip anything of value.

Russ, NCNE

fcloud

Russ,

Then, may I expand my question further.

If a coin is dipped properly (whatever your technique) is the tarnish/color/whatever going to come back, or once the coin is properly stored does it remain bright like that EXCELLENT '64.

Thanks,

Tony

crito

To me a dipped coin is a cleaned coin.
Depends what it's dipped in. mrdq dipped a walker half in chocolate, didn't look particularly clean to me. But I gather you meant in acid, in which case, I'd have to say yes, it is cleaning.
Do you think dipping is acceptable?
If done properly. Just like there's a right and wrong way to hammer a nail, your results can be either good or bad depending how you do it.
Doesn't dipping ruin the original mint luster by etching the surface?
It can, if done improperly. I saw an NGC AU58 commemorative half at my local coin show that had "overdipped" printed on the label, though I think they bodybag them now (almost bought it for the novelty value, hehe.)
PCGS has a no grade description #92 Cleaning. What do they not grade for cleaning? Is dipping considered conservation?
The exact wording I have: "PCGS has a policy prohibiting the encapsulation of coins with problems such as artificial toning, excessive cleaning, environmental damage, PVC damage, major scratches or serious planchet flaws." The important phrase being "excessive cleaning."

DaveG

FYI, Scott Travers has an excellent discussion of dipping and cleaning in his "Coin Collector's Survival Manual". He reprints some electron microscope pictures of a coin's surface pre- and post-dipping. You can see the impact of the dipping on the coin's surface.

However, to answer your question, when most collectors say "cleaning", they really mean "abrasive cleaning," which leaves tell-tale scratches or hairlines on a coin's surface. Dipping, when well done, doesn't leave marks that can be seen by normal (5x, 10x or 20x) magnification. Most collectors don't mind a BU coin that has been dipped. For example, many knowledgeable people say that "all" of the bright white BU Morgans have been dipped (except for the GSA Morgans, of course). Over-dipped coins, however, have a "washed-out" look that usually reduces the coin's price.

However, most collectors do mind a circulated coin that has been dipped. For example, a VF Walker that is bright white will usually bring a lower price, as will a white VF Seated or Bust coin, etc.

Dog97

What everybody else said. BUT when it's a bad job and you can see spots (that's usually from a coin that shouldn't have been dipped in the first place) or that golden brown retone I don't like it then. Very few coins are actually improved by the dip.

stman

When I see a coin with the light gold brown edges that has been dipped and retoned I don't care for it. Now a while back when I first started to appreciate toning I liked it. Till I learned how it got there. Now thats one of the first things I look for.

Stman

darktone

dipping is clearly a form of cleaning! but is it acceptable? I think that depends on your own personel taste in coins. mike

fcloud

So, because I like mine white, there is a good chance I have purchased some cleaned coins and didn't know it because the job was done right? There may be a place for dipping, but for me I think I'll leave it to the alchemists. Hopefully I'll be able to tell by a lack of luster on overdipped coins, and rub marks on improperly cleaned coins.

Thank you, everyone, for the information.

Tony

Russ

<< <i>Hopefully I'll be able to tell by a lack of luster on overdipped coins >>



You'll be able to tell. Next time you're at a show, head to the nearest table that has a lot of Morgans or Walkers in mint state, and start comparing them. During the course of trying to build my Walker short set I've seen a lot of dull, crappy looking coins with no luster left.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl

simple rule-of-thumb that has worked well for me: silver coins minted before 1964 that are BLAST WHITE are dipped, plain & simple, so i will NOT pay full value for them. however, that doesn't mean i WON'T buy them.

however, some people just gotta have BLAST WHITE, & i can respect that, so those collectors would not pay a premium for originality.

it all depends on what you like.

the following are forms of cleaning: whizzing, scrubbing, dipping, polishing, wiping, brushing, oiling, soap&water, laser-etching, sandblasting, tumbling, & the list goes on & on. but you confront reality when buying coins, & the reality is that a lot of coins have been cleaned. big deal, just like a lot of classic automobiles have been restored, and a lot of antique paintings have been conserved. i think much too much of a big deal has been made out of "cleaned" coins. if you run across a cleaned coin, just lower your estimate of it's grade, decide whether you can live with or without it, then get on with your life.

1 last comment: encapsulation appears to have seriously boosted the dipping phenomenon, since you can go to any large show and find mountains of BLAST WHITE morgan dollars and walking liberty halves. personally, i don't like that.

K S

fcloud

simple rule-of-thumb that has worked well for me: silver coins minted before 1964 that are BLAST WHITE are dipped, plain & simple

I have some old bank rolls from the 1950s that are blast white and I know they have not been dipped. Just because it is white doesn't mean it has been cleaned.

Thanks for all the comments.

Tony