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A different Dilema: Registry integrity
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
At a local show a year or so back a dealer pulled out a double row box of first generation PCGS holders for me. I was thinking I was in hog heaven until I looked at the coins. Each and every coin was ugly, spotted and had turned in the holder. I doubt that any would reslab within 2 grades of the current insert.
Question: would it be ethical for me to buy these at a huge discount and put them on the Set Registry KNOWING that the coins would not grade at these levels under current standards?
And how does that reconcile with your position on a previously graded raw coin being allowed? Why would we allow a slabbed coin that has detiorated but not a raw correctly graded coin?
My feelings are that it goes back to personal integrity. It is impossible to police short of continuous inspections of the registered sets. If someone wants to buy slabbed junk and compete at a discount they can. If someone wants to crack out their previously slabbed PCGS coins and put them in capital plastics or send them to another grading service, they can. If someone wants to register an "insert only" set, they can. It all comes down to personal beliefs.
I will now state my personal beliefs that I will abide by:
If I don't think a coin meets the grade, I will not put it in my Registry Set. If I do think the coin meets the grade and it has been certified as such by PCGS then I will do with it as I please (including storing it raw or regraded in another holder). If at any time the coin deteriorates or is damaged then I will get it regraded and abide by the new grade. But if the coin, in my determination, has not deteriorated or been damaged then I will feel free to use the insert to be on the registry and/or get it back in the same holder.
There are those that will agree with me and those that will disagree. Please feel free to state your own personal beliefs that you will abide by. These statements will mean much more than a vague and unenforceable rule.
Question: would it be ethical for me to buy these at a huge discount and put them on the Set Registry KNOWING that the coins would not grade at these levels under current standards?
And how does that reconcile with your position on a previously graded raw coin being allowed? Why would we allow a slabbed coin that has detiorated but not a raw correctly graded coin?
My feelings are that it goes back to personal integrity. It is impossible to police short of continuous inspections of the registered sets. If someone wants to buy slabbed junk and compete at a discount they can. If someone wants to crack out their previously slabbed PCGS coins and put them in capital plastics or send them to another grading service, they can. If someone wants to register an "insert only" set, they can. It all comes down to personal beliefs.
I will now state my personal beliefs that I will abide by:
If I don't think a coin meets the grade, I will not put it in my Registry Set. If I do think the coin meets the grade and it has been certified as such by PCGS then I will do with it as I please (including storing it raw or regraded in another holder). If at any time the coin deteriorates or is damaged then I will get it regraded and abide by the new grade. But if the coin, in my determination, has not deteriorated or been damaged then I will feel free to use the insert to be on the registry and/or get it back in the same holder.
There are those that will agree with me and those that will disagree. Please feel free to state your own personal beliefs that you will abide by. These statements will mean much more than a vague and unenforceable rule.
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As for integrity in a registry set. The coins were slabbed by PCGS and have an equal share in the registry, in my opinion. If you firmly believe that if a coin doesn't meet the grade that it was assigned, don't buy the coins.
I, for one, prefer to have high quality, PQ coins in my registry sets. If I don't think a coin that I get meets the standard I won't include it in my registry sets. If anyone else wants to, that's completely up to them. I know what I like and if I don't like it, I don't buy it or keep it.
The only reason I would buy them under these circumstances would be to resell them for profit, feeding on people's thinking that they were way undergraded. If they haven't learned how to grade yet, it's their fault.
Just my personal AND humble opinion.
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
I completly agree except for one issue. If you list a coin in the registry it should remain in the PCGS slab. Once it is removed from its slab the insert is no longer linked to the coin, even if you know it is the same coin. What would happen if PCGS decided to do a coin/cert verification? Or if you were asked to perticipate in a showdown like the one for the IHC sets?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Ken
You may do as you please, except for accusing me of "circumventing" a vague rule that no one can agree on what it exactly means.
That was a General Question !!
I still say, You or whoever bought the coins and have them in your or his possession, so the owner may do as he chooses.
Edit to Add:
Clairity from PCGS and NGC would be real nice. I agree whooly.
Ken
Ken
<< <i>In effect you now no longer have the same coin that would be included in the PCGS registry. Thoughts? >>
Huh? Why do you no longer have the same coin. Confused.
Sort of like having an olympic record, then going out and setting the world record and having the olympics remove your olympic record because you have exceeded the record in another venue.
Russ, NCNE
With regard to all the phantom sets - Russ how do you identify which these are? How and why did they get there?
Another ethical question: Should nearly everyone with a PR70 in the registry be required to have it re-graded as they do not give them anymore (so it should be assumed they would not receive the grade if they submitted them today). Are these coins "really" better than the current PQ69's?
As it stands, the coin should be listed in the PCGS registry with the grade PCGS gave it. Guess we may need a clarification on this and if this is incorrect PCGS will have to come up with an entirely new marketing program for the registry as the current one would not apply with these new rules.
The PCGS Set Registry demands that one standard (ha!) be used to evaluate the quality of the coin. The NGC Registry allows two standards.
The coin in question is the finest 1877 MS coin I have ever seen. It was graded by PCGS as MS64, which it is most definitely NOT. Several trade dollar experts have seen the coin and agree with me that it is MS65 by anyone's standards. HOWEVER, it does not have fully struck stars. For some VERY STRANGE reason, PCGS will allow a PF67 trade dollar to have completely flat stars, but an MS65 must have almost complete stars. NGC has a different standard - MS65 does not require the stars to be well struck at all.
So we have one coin, evaluated under two different standards. It's the same coin and I own it. When it competes on the PCGS board, it's listed at the PCGS standard. If it's regraded by NGC then it will compete against other NGC coins at the NGC standard. If, for some reason, PCGS clarifies the rule and prohibits this, then I'll just go out and buy a ho-hum commercial PCGS MS64 and still keep my spectacular MS64/65 where it belongs - in my set!
I fail to see what all the hoopla is about. Most of the people here only participate in the PCGS Set Registry. As long as the coin's quality has been evaluated by PCGS and you know you are competing against the same (ha!) standard, what's the issue? With regards to just submitting the coin 100 times until PCGS gives in - I don't play that game.
I have seen this coin, and was desperate to get it for my own collection just because I knew it was so fine and possibly the finest 1877. This beauty had awesome, attractive original toning and was kind of well struck for the date. My own specimen has a similar strike, but does not have the awesome toning that this one has. (Mine does have superbly frosty luster though!)
TDN - imagine how you would've felt if I had bothered to pursue this baby! Remember that I was at the auction and had seen firsthand how special this coin was... I can just picture Laurie having to keep us from killing each other! You may have paid a lot for the holder, but you got the coin cheap!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
TDN - I was originally impressed by your direct "ethical" approach in what you believe. However, now that I notice that you don't have pictures of the items you prefer to show at the higher grade (ms 65 in both cases in the NGC set vs ms 64's in the PCGS set) I must question whether or not you yourself felt there was something wrong with what you were doing? If you felt as strong as you did then you would not have cared if I identified the same coin in two different registries at different grades. Just my humble opinion now but I believe you should de-list your 73-cc and 77 in the PCGS registry and have them regraded before you re-list them (hey, maybe PCGS will cross them) OR list them in the NGC registry at the ms64 points. OR, you can ignore this and let your conscience be your guide IMHO.
Its funny that you posted your reply minutes before mine - just took me to long to draft it.
I really should let TDN answer for himself, but I know why he doesn't have pictures of his '73-CC and his '77. There's nothing ulterior in their absence. I've harassed him about the pics too. The reason why he doesn't have pictures of them is simply because it's awfully inconvenient for him to get the pictures taken.
It's really a matter of the scanner, the coins and his main PC are in 3 different places.
However, I just realized that he can pull the pics off the Internet -- direct from the auction companies. In fact, I may do just that right now and pretend that they're my own!
EVP
[edited to add that I can only download the '77.]
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
However, as it stands right now I would have no problem whatsoever in listing the same coin in both registries under different grades. I am ok with that concept for the reasons I've previously stated.
TDN - thanks for the clarification. Great set.
PCGS does not list any rules concerning high end vs low end coins for the grade.However as collectors we can either be buyers of plastic vs correctly graded coins.IMHO there is no reason to upgrade a coin to an alternative service unless you are planning to sell it
TDN - I respect your statement of your own rules regarding integrity,however you are in a situation in such that you are only competing against yourself.There is no other set nor will there ever be any set that will be finer than your present set........even if you sold your set.......Do you collect anything else ?
when we compare the PCGS set registry vs the NGC set registry
The NGC set registry would probably not exist if they only allowed NGC coins
I just returned from the showdown in Long Beach.IMHO there was more bonding with other collectors of the same series than I've ever experienced.I hope the Showdowns continue.
I also went by Larry Sheperds table and got to see IMHO the finest set of Proof Barber Quarters imaginable............and they are all in NGC holders.....The Hugon collection
Stewart
We disagree on this point. I trust my grading skills. I've seen almost every high grade trade dollar that has been on the market the past ten years (and some that aren't on the market). I think I know the series as well as most anyone. When a coin is a 65, it should be in a 65 holder. When a coin is the finest, it should be in the finest holder - not lumped in with 50 other coins in the next lower grade due to some obscure (and inconsistent) rule regarding the amount of strike pressure on the stars. Or because they haven't made that grade before.
I'd rather go to another service and get the proper grade than battle PCGS - it's easier on my blood pressure.
<< <i>With regard to all the phantom sets - Russ how do you identify which these are? >>
lincolnSence,
They are the ones with the asterik next to the name of the set. One example that directly bears on this discussion would be proof trade dollars, where the Eliasburg set is listed as the #1 all time finest. See how that might be more than a little irritating for somebody like TDN who, in reality, owns the REAL finest set?
<< <i>Another ethical question: Should nearly everyone with a PR70 in the registry be required to have it re-graded as they do not give them anymore >>
dbldie55,
Just thought I'd repeat that.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>dbldie55 - Don't know much about ms70's but what is the point advantage? Are the 69's and 70's weighted the same? If so, your point is moot. >>
You really missed the point. For many modern series, the top sets consist of many coins graded 70. You "CANNOT" recreate these sets today as PCGS will NOT give the same grades. A collector today "CANNOT" compete with sets that include these 70 coins, as they cannot get the grade today. It may be one point but multiplied by dozens of coins and you will see my point. These coins can look horrible today, but would still be considered the finest coins based on the number on the holder. If there was a "Showdown", the number one set may be the worst looking set of the bunch. If you cracked the coins out, they would "NEVER" get back into the same holder as they do not give the grade today.
What many people say is that a terrible looking, overgraded coin in a holder should be allowed at full points, but a coin that was graded and is still of the exact same quality, but not in the holder should not.
I have no intentions to be rude or mean BUT, it seems to me the interpretation of the rules is best done with a bit of "common sense". PCGS does not allow coins in a different service holders or raw to be entered in the registry. Everyone wants to use the estimated sets as a way to reinvent the wheel but we need to remember those sets were assembled prior to third party grading so PCGS has seen fit to give them the respect they deserve with an estimated grade. That in now way implies or allows for a "current set" to include raw coins. If a coin is removed from its PCGS slab for any reason it IS again a raw coin and as such even if it is reslabbed by a different service it no longer qualifies to be included in the PCGS Regisrty.
Sorry tradedollarnut but it appears to me you are not using common sense but simply twisting the rules to fit your current wants, desires and opinions. Sad FACT, your coin being an MS64 or MS65 in your eyes is really irrelevant when it comes to participating in the PCGS registry.
PCGS assigns a coin a grade, it might be a just make or high end just missed the next grade, or it might be over or undergraded. Regardless it made the grade and as such they all carry the same weight. If a collector chooses to save money and buy low end coins so be it his set will reflect it. Even if it ranks higher on the registry it will never compare to the set put together with top quality coins. Everyone will know who's set is best.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>Should nearly everyone with a PR70 in the registry be required to have it re-graded as they do not give them anymore? For many modern series, the top sets consist of many coins graded 70. You "CANNOT" recreate these sets today as PCGS will NOT give the same grades. A collector today "CANNOT" compete with sets that include these 70 coins, as they cannot get the grade today >>
Man, you guys are really getting wrapped around the PCGS Registry pole.
Again, PCGS assigns a coin a grade, it might be a just make or high end just missed the next grade, or it might be over or undergraded. Regardless it made the grade at the time it was submitted and as such they all carry the same weight. If a collector chooses to save money and buy low end or over graded coins so be it his set will reflect it. Even if it ranks higher on the registry it will never compare to the set put together with top quality coins. Everyone will know who's set is best.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>PCGS does not allow coins in a different service holders or raw to be entered in the registry. >>
Wrong. TDN competes directly with a set that is not only NOT in PCGS holders, many are in NGC holders, and owned by multiple different people.
<< <i>PCGS has seen fit to give them the respect they deserve with an estimated grade. >>
Fine, than create a special registry for these sets. Until they do, TDN is right.
Russ, NCNE
I am not twisting any rules whatsoever. The rule is sufficiently vague as to be interpreted in two different ways. Until it is clarified, my interpretation is as good as your interpretation. A significant number of people believe that if you've paid PCGS to grade your coin, that the grade follows the coin. You might disagree, but your position is no more authoritative just because you forcefully state it.
PCGS does not allow coins in a different service holders or raw to be entered in the registry.
Please show me exactly where it says that. Specifically states that fact.
The rest of your post is just fluff. The estimated sets are there to stay - doesn't matter. A coin can be PQ or ugly - doesn't matter. A coin can be in the holder or out - doesn't matter.
I never said it did. I accept the fact that the coin is an MS64 under PCGS's grading standards. That will never change. But it's an MS65 under everyone else's standards and that's where it will reside. PCGS was paid to grade the coin. Along with the grade opinion you get the right to list the coin in the Registry. That is my opinion and others. Until it is clarified by PCGS, it is just as valid as your opinion.
And, what's with all this business of questioning others' sense of ethics? I mean, really, what kind of ethics can there really be in coin registration? There wasn't a canon of ethics before, and now people speak as if there's been one all along...
Someone mentioned something about the financial value of the sets being tied into the registry. That may well be, but how is it appropriate for one party to lobby for one set of rules (or ethics) for financial gain but the other party cannot lobby for another set of rules?
For those of you arguing your point to protect the financial health of your sets, I would suggest that you come clean and make it perfectly clear that your argument has nothing to do with ethical behavior. It's all about financial opportunism.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I don't get your point about financial gain. What registry you are in has little to do with financial gain when you are collecting. You pay what you pay and sure you can in certain circumstances "make more on a coin if its crossed to the other holder". None of this is even on the table. TDN put his nuts on the line when he said this was HIS ETHICAL APPROACH to a scenario. And quite frankly, no surprise many collectors feel that in some small way this thread is evaluated as if a fast one is being pulled. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, its just a feeling. People collect and try to get to the higher registered set status and now they hear about an interpretation???????????? Think about it. I does give one pause. Again, I respect his opinion, and hope it gets the needed clarification. With the resources he has I hope he stays out of the lincoln registry
PCGS needs to clarify its intentions on this issue. A "one liner" would likely cover it (one way or the other).
Once PCGS clarifies it, there will be no open issue of interpretation.
I personally expect PCGS to only permit CURRENTLY encapsulated PCGS coins in their registry (other than whatever sets they chose to "estimate").
Wondercoin.
No disappointment. Like I said - I own both a PCGS MS64 and an NGC MS65 for both the 1873CC and the 1877.
And I expected nothing else but PCGS to declare that the coin must remain in the holder. But I did want a clarification.
Only coins that are CURRENTLY in PCGS holders qualify for inclusion in sets (except where PCGS estimate the grade of a set).
This policy has been clarified in the RULES, but should you have any further questions, please feel free to email me directly. Thank you.
bsearls@collectors.com
Set Registry & Special Projects Director
PCGS (coins) www.pcgs.com
PSA (cards & tickets) www.psacard.com
BJ - thank you for the clarification. I don't know why I argued so strenuously as I suspected that would be your exact clarification. I guess I just get tired of it always being about the plastic holder and not the quality of the coin inside. Keep up the good work!
TDN: Hey, I must admit, my word "CURRENTLY" really does close down the ambiguity well. If PCGS borrowed the word from one of my posts, it is with my blessings
And, so ends another weekly saga of "As The Coin Turns".
Wondercoin
<< <i>PCGS does not allow coins in a different service holders or raw to be entered in the registry. >>
<< <i>Wrong. TDN competes directly with a set that is not only NOT in PCGS holders, many are in NGC holders, and owned by multiple different people. >>
WRONG Just because TDN is doing it should not be interpreted as being ok according to PCGS. My opinion with all due respect to TDN is that due to the vagueness in the rules he should have gotten a clarification from PCGS prior to doing it.
<< <i>PCGS has seen fit to give them the respect they deserve with an estimated grade. >>
<< <i>Fine, than create a special registry for these sets. Until they do, TDN is right. >>
WRONG! Since when did two wrongs ever make a right?
The coin in the slab is the integrity of the registry. Anyone or party with a registered collection should be able to prove ownership of each and every " PCGS slabbed coin" at any given time.
That is the intent of the rules.
If that is not so then why does anyone collect coins when an insert collection will do just fine. Buy a PCGS slabbed coin and enter it in your PCGS set crack it out keep the insert and send it to NGC for an upgrade. Then enter it in your NGC set but again crack it out keep the insert and sell it. That way you can keep recycling your money and within a year or so you will definatly be #1. And hey you did own the all time #1 set just not all at the same time. Who can argue with that interpretation?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Thanks BJ for clearing it all up.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
That previous post is completely out of whack. Where did you get the misperception that Russ was stating my coins are raw and compete head to head raw with an estimated set????? He's merely stating that there is an estimated set in the area of my collection and that very few of the coins actually in that set have ever been in a PCGS holder.
PCGS has spoken. Enough already.
Sorry I confused it with you using one coin in both the NGC & PCGS registey after it was crossed over to an NGC slab.
<< <i>Wrong. TDN competes directly >>
with >>
a set that is not only NOT in PCGS holders, many are in NGC holders, and owned by multiple different people. >>
Gotta admit it could be misinterpreted
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
The above cannot be true if PCGS makes you remove a coin they graded.
Now that BJ has nicely issued a statement, let me stir the pot just a little bit more. (I'm really not trying to be a rascal...)
Suppose I have a coin that is graded by NGC as MS64 and I get it crossed into PCGS as MS63.
Can I register it as MS64 over there and MS63 over here?
Please understand that BJ speaks for this registry only...
EVP
PS Please understand that this is a hypothetical situation...
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Obviously, we're looking for NGC also to issue a statement, but suppose what they say is more lenient than what BJ said.
Should we simply conduct ourselves as if NGC said the same thing as PCGS? Does it matter?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>The above cannot be true if PCGS makes you remove a coin they graded. >>
It is you the collector that is responsible for maintaining the integrity of your registered set. IF YOU choose to remove a coin from its PCGS grade guaranteed slab then you no longer own a coin certified by PCGS and the grade is again a matter of opinion and questionable in the eyes of the registry and other collectors (That is not me saying the grade on the slab is absolute "just guaranteed"), the coin has been subjected to a different unprotected enviornment, and the coin/insert relationship is brought into question. PCGS does not force you to remove a coin rather YOU choose to disqualify it from inclusion.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
TDN - Wouldn't you rather have your coin in a PCGS ms 65 holder than in an NGC ms 64 holder ? You spoke of not having your blood pressure raised. Have you tried lobbying for the upgrade ? Perhaps someone else can be successful at getting the ms 65 grade.With all your resources and contacts,I can't believe you have given up trying to get your coin properly graded at PCGS
FYI David Hall told me I can be the biggest pain in the ass.We're still friendly and always say hello to each other and respect each others judgement
As far as proof 70's go everyone knows they are no different than 69's.PCGS did a wise move discontinuing them as even the government destroyed recently unsold Proof sets because of tarnishing..........But now NGC grades them Proof 70
Stewart
<< <i>Hi! Now that BJ has nicely issued a statement, let me stir the pot just a little bit more. (I'm really not trying to be a rascal...) Suppose I have a coin that is graded by NGC as MS64 and I get it crossed into PCGS as MS63. Can I register it as MS64 over there and MS63 over here? Please understand that BJ speaks for this registry only... EVP PS Please understand that this is a hypothetical situation... >>
I asked this same question but used my 1976-S NGC MS68* Ike as an example (it crossing into a PCGS MS67 holder).
Is it "MS67" on the PCGS side but still "NGC MS68*" on the NGC side?
peacockcoins
Greg
Perhaps I will lobby. I showed the coin to Chris Napolitano and he unhesitatingly stated it should be a PCGS MS65 and that it was the finest he'd ever seen. I almost walked it thru at LB, but they were soooo tight.
But....the stars are not fully struck - only about 75%. Better than over 90% of all 1877's, but not sharply struck for the series. I guess I'll never understand why a PF67 can have completely flat stars, but an MS65 must have sharply struck stars.
Are there any dates in the IH series where weak strikes are notorious? Are they strict on that specific date?
Trade Dollar Nut - FYI The grading was tight all week at Long Beach until Friday.....then the window of opportunity opened.....I went 4/5
There are many dates in the Indian cent series where the upper feather tips are almost never fully struck.The difference is they will call them ms 66 and not ms 67
However in the Lincoln cent series they will never call a 1922 Lincoln cent ms65 red
Nor have they ever called a 1955/55 Lincoln cent ms 66 red
I would suggest you send that trade dollar in Round Table Review and on the invoice explain as briefly as possible why you feel it should be an ms 65 ......Good Luck !!!!!!!
Stewart