A specific dilemna: Registry Integrity

braddick

The other two related threads regarding the registry and inserts and coins have gotten a bit convoluted for me. I'd like to ask a specific question and my hope is your specific answer will define the ethics of the question.

Scenerio: You own a blast white MS65 rare date Morgan dollar. In your opinion the coin is a lock MS65 but with a definite shot at MS66. You crack it out and resubmit.
It comes back MS64. You try again and it's still MS64. What did you miss?
Regardless, you are now faced with a coin in your Registry that is listed as a PCGS MS65 but you now own the coin in PCGS MS64!
Do you drop the "MS65" from your set and add the MS64?
Or, keeping the MS65 insert simply leave things as they are with no modifiations?

a2labmom

My opinion, for what it's worth, drop the MS65 and replace it with the MS64. My reasoning is, once the coin is cracked out, it no longer has rights to the original grade it was assigned. Something like this can/will/probably does skew the pop reports and makes them unreliable and wrong.

merz2

I'd crack it out and submit the original insert with a cracked slab,and asked for reslab.If I felt it truely deserved the MS65 grade.

dbldie55

I would do exactly as Don suggests. I have seen this many times and then it is right back into the "undergraded " MS65 holder.

braddick

Let's assume the coin was missed on the first pass and REALLY is an MS64 (slight rim ding you didn't see?).

Also- just to throw a monkey wrench into the works:
What if the coin came back MS66? Certainly you would then toss out the "MS65" grade and add your "new" MS66"?

Shouldn't the same work in reverse with the MS64 grade?
After all, we're only fooling ourselves otherwise, right?

IrishMike

What if there is a coin show that you have to go to and you are taking along a superb MS68 1893-S Morgan, but you forgot that you had promised your 5 year old daughter that you would take her to the circus that day too. As luck would have it the parking is an old football practice field and it rained the night before and it is very muddy. One of the circus clowns trips in his huge shoes in front of you while your 5 year old is holding the coin looking at it. Because of the sudden stop the coin flies out the window into the mud. Before you can get stopped and parked the elephants come along and one of them steps on the slab, cracks it open and the coin is left with an elephant toenail indentation.

What do you 1) send it into PCGS along with the original insert to be regraded. 2) Send it into NCS to be conserved 3) Divorce your wife for putting you in this situation in the first place 4) Head for the nearest bar and get drunk. 5) Send it ANACS for variety designation or 6) All of the above.

If you do nothing do you leave it in the registry set?

Sorry about the post but this whole debate is a little tiring, the Registry is not all that important and it has to be self-policing. Lastly if PCGS clarifies the whole "has to be in a slab issue" then they must be consistent and remove any set from any of the Registries that never were slabbed in the first place.

fcloud

You should place it in your set as the last grade (MS64). Send it back in to see if they made a mistake, and if it come back as MS65 then put it back in as MS65 or whatever it comes back as.

I have never cracked out a coin, so excuse me for this comment.

Can cracking out a coin somehow cause minor damage to the coin?

Tony

merz2

braddick
You keep changing the scenerio.If the coin is a 64 then send it back for re-encapsulation as such.Try to keep the records straight by sending in both inserts.

braddick

IrishMike, I'm sorry you opened a Thread you find to be tiring.
I'll do a better job next time in not being so vague with the title of it (?!) so as to allow you to prevent opening it...

-Sorry about changing the question/tone of the debate. I guess I find it interesting the various answers and opinions. It's how I learn.

But, you have my word- this will be the last thread I raise regarding the topic.

IrishMike

Pat, that post was tongue in cheek. My only point was the Registry has to be self-policing or it would be a circus. We can debate all kinds of scenarios, but it comes down to the individual and their concept of right and wrong. Please keep up your "tiring" posts. Sorry you took it the wrong way.

EVillageProwler

Folks,

I really wish we had a single thread for this topic. (It's a good topic, Pat, but I do wish that it would taper off soon. But, it is my choice to continue to participate!)

My additional thoughts on the matter: I think in the numismatic world beyond the registry, there is a certain set of soft rules based on soft ethics. Basically, you do what you want and the if it's legal, then fine. The likelihood of the ANA or the PNG intervening is low. No one really gets actively involved if coins are LQ, PQ or on the money. No one really gets actively involved if coins have positive eye appeal, negative appeal or are meerly product coins.

The industry, by and large, is un-regulated.

What makes anyone think that we can regulate the registry when it has pretty much all of the flaws inherent in the industry at large?

Many people feel that it is ok to apply this one simple rule: include coins in the registry only if it's currently slabbed.

But, TDN and others have pointed out that there are inconsistencies to the reasoning behind this simple rule.

Then, we try to come up with more simple rules? (Like, eliminating the estimated sets or changing the PCGS ad from ``finest sets'' to something else.)

Then, someone surely will come up with more inconsistencies, and then more simple rules, and then more this and then more that.

It's a vicious cycle, folks, and I think we would be unable to come up with an adequate solution that withstands intense scrutiny.

EVP

WWBillman

Its a game, PCGS's game. PCGS makes the rules and individual collectors choose to play. If PCGS says the estimated sets are ok thats the way it is. You do not have to like the rules but if you choose to play you must in all fairness play by them. In the mean time you may lobby to change them. If the rules and inconsistancies are just to bad for an individual to accept then do not play.

tradedollarnut

Now if they would just clarify certain rules, we can all rest easy (until the Registry Police show up!)

dbldie55

I agree with Bill. Gotta follow the rules. Now, if PCGS makes a rule that states that if you take a coin out of the holder, you have to take it out of the set I guess many will just be breaking the rule.

Keyrock

I would drop to the 64. I would think I was cheating and it would taint my collection thinking I had something I didn't really have. On the lines of re-sumitting how could PCGS justify slabbing the coin back as a 65 just because you have the insert? What if you got a 66 and then used the tag to submit a raw PQ 64 for the 65. If you play the game you have to be willing to lose too.

tradedollarnut

Think what you like, but it happens all the time.