A cool toner for ANACONDA and hi to the LB folks
barney
Posts: 205 ✭
Hello all.
I enjoyed my one day in Long Beach yesterday; saw the Texas Bullion dude (sorry I wasn't able to find you again to say good-bye and thanks), Bryan (aka GSAGUY), and other board members in the LA area; also talked to Larry Shapiro whom I will meet later. Carl Wohlforth and I had dinner and talked coins, of course. He had some interestingly-toned nickels that may or not be AT.
Although I was looking for a "CC" toned Morgan, I found MY coin-a toned Morgan that might be worthy of ANACONDA-hope to talk to you about it, Adrian...it's a PCGS 64 1886 which has original bag rainbow toning over rich original lustre on BOTH sides! It didn't come cheap, but I was able to trade my small type set for the coin. Evan Gale traded me the coin straight-up for the following:
1917 type 1 FH SLQ PCGS 64 (my cost $400) (he offered $270)
1925 Cali Comm PCI 64 (my cost $250) (he offered only $150 because of the PCI slab)
1935 Conn Commem NGC 65 w/Box (my cost $600) (he offered $450)
1936 Oregon Comm PCGS 65 (my cost $200) (he offered $150)
1860-O Seated $1 PCGS 61 (my cost $1200) (he offered $980)
1926 Indian $10 PCGS 63 (my cost $500) (he offered $500)
I plan to scan it but I doubt the picture would do justice to the coin. I hope to hang onto it indefinitely..., but if I need to pay off a bill and the right offer comes along, well...
I don't know what the rest of the show was like, but it seemed kind of slow. Many dealers had toned dollars, but I did not see a lot of buying activity. Mike Bob's collection of proof-sets was, like WOW! Did you see those ultra-hi relief St. Gaudens? Unbelievable!
Well, I think I did OK-for now.
Take care y'all,
Barney
I enjoyed my one day in Long Beach yesterday; saw the Texas Bullion dude (sorry I wasn't able to find you again to say good-bye and thanks), Bryan (aka GSAGUY), and other board members in the LA area; also talked to Larry Shapiro whom I will meet later. Carl Wohlforth and I had dinner and talked coins, of course. He had some interestingly-toned nickels that may or not be AT.
Although I was looking for a "CC" toned Morgan, I found MY coin-a toned Morgan that might be worthy of ANACONDA-hope to talk to you about it, Adrian...it's a PCGS 64 1886 which has original bag rainbow toning over rich original lustre on BOTH sides! It didn't come cheap, but I was able to trade my small type set for the coin. Evan Gale traded me the coin straight-up for the following:
1917 type 1 FH SLQ PCGS 64 (my cost $400) (he offered $270)
1925 Cali Comm PCI 64 (my cost $250) (he offered only $150 because of the PCI slab)
1935 Conn Commem NGC 65 w/Box (my cost $600) (he offered $450)
1936 Oregon Comm PCGS 65 (my cost $200) (he offered $150)
1860-O Seated $1 PCGS 61 (my cost $1200) (he offered $980)
1926 Indian $10 PCGS 63 (my cost $500) (he offered $500)
I plan to scan it but I doubt the picture would do justice to the coin. I hope to hang onto it indefinitely..., but if I need to pay off a bill and the right offer comes along, well...
I don't know what the rest of the show was like, but it seemed kind of slow. Many dealers had toned dollars, but I did not see a lot of buying activity. Mike Bob's collection of proof-sets was, like WOW! Did you see those ultra-hi relief St. Gaudens? Unbelievable!
Well, I think I did OK-for now.
Take care y'all,
Barney
Nicht mehr Münzen-für jetzt!
0
Comments
Must be one heckuva coin! - I'd love to see pictures of it!
Frank
For your sake I hope it's an O ??.Al
PCGS lists MS66 at $245 and MS67 at $900 if it is a Philly and not PL or DMPL.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
IF your post was REAL and ACCURATE, check into a return trade if possible. I love toned coins and pay premiums....but.....this would be tough to justify no matter the color. Sincerely, K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Evan Gale at Aspen Park?
Sincerely,
Barney
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it can get a little heated in here. The coin jumped out like a fish out of water to me. I gagged on the price; then again,
I've seen what other common-date toners are going for, and I saw no coin like this in Long Beach-and I looked at hundreds of coins. I did ask the
dealer if there was a return policy, but I want to get some reactions from potential buyers before I decide what to do with it. GSAGUY and TONEKILLER have
seen the coin and Carl Wohlforth was with me when I bought it. Toned Morgans are not Carl's thing, so we'll see if I got "took."
The dealer is reputable and his website is aprc.com.
Thanks for writing,
Barney in San Diego
Sorry if my comment sounded like you were "had". I didn't intend it to sound that way, but $2500-3100 is definately at the top for a common 64. I have seen many nice coins from Aspen Park, however, I have never purchased from them as I thought their prices were a bit too steep at least from a wholesale standpoint. Most of the "monsters" at a major show are retail priced, but occasionally you can find a dealer who is willing to work more in the wholesale price range with this material, especially if you have developed some kind of relationship with them. If you bought it as a collector, I see no problem with your purchase, however, if you bought it with resale in mind, you may have a problem getting out of it without losing some money. If you like it and feel you paid a fair price, that's all that really matters.
I guess the coin must have been wedged into a corner of the bag or something like that. Only a small part of the obverse was covered by another coin. I don't think this coin will scan well
How many Morgans are there that develop awesome color on both sides? This is the question to me. Do any of you have a Morgan with super toning on both sides? Even though I'm not into toned Morgans that coin clearly is worth a premium. The question is how much.
As you can see from the above facts, it is certainly not true that grade doesn't matter. In my own mind, those $5000 MS65 monsters would have been worth at least $1000 more with a few less marks and a grade of MS66.
Two-sided toning is unusual but not as rare as you might think. (But, monster toning on both sides is very rare indeed.) I consider them more of an oddity than a rarity, and I do not believe they would command a significant premium over a coin having the same obverse with a nice white reverse. The key factor remains the beauty of the obverse. For example, suppose we designate an eye appeal color scale of 1-10, 10 being highest. Consider 2 coins: the first one has an obverse rating of 9, such as the 2 pieces mentioned above, with white reverse. The second has an obverse rating of 8, with reverse rating of, say, 7. In my judgment, the first coin would sell for more --possibly much more.
In the Goldberg sale, I used a four star rating, and the top 2 coins got 4 stars. The next coin, which received 3 stars, sold for 40% less. Although it had a white reverse, it was prooflike and far superior to the reverses on the other 2 coins. Still, it sold for much less. Another piece garnered my 2 star rating on obverse and reverse, and it still sold for 60% less then the 2 top pieces.
In sum, if you have a monster toned MS64 obverse, with very nice reverse toning, $2500 is a strong price but not necessarily an unfair one. If both sides are monsters, then perhaps you have a bargain, especially if the majority of the surface areas are toned.
You probably know the answers to these questions. You said GSAGUY saw the coin. He knows a little about toned dollars, as one would expect from the fellow having arguably the best such collection in the country. I would rely on his opinion about this coin, as I presume you did.
I will try to send you a scan which hopefully will give you an idea about the coin. Yes, GSAGUY gave me the advice that I will "take to heart."
In the meantime, I am going to enjoy looking at that little monster.
Take care,
Barney Plisko
sdsu6993117@yahoo.com
This coin was mostly toned on the obverse, say %80-%90. The reverse was fully toned. I can't say if it was a 8 or 9 or what, as I say I haven't seen that many of these. Each side was nicer than any other Morgan I saw at the show. But I probably didn't see them all...
If none of you has a Dollar with super toning on both sides then I, for one, would surely pay more for one than one with similiar toning on one side.
Do you have any pictures of the coins that you referred to in the Goldberg sale?
Frank
Check out the Goldberg website, auction lots 601 and 602. These were what was considered the top two coins in the Toned Morgan Collection and each went for close to $5000 with the juice. I felt that both were accurately graded at MS65.
Gemtone did an excellent job of analyzing the pricing structure of these coins. It's virtually impossible to look at a sheet price and make any sort of guesstimate as to how one of these coins will sell based on grade alone. It basically boils down to understanding the complex mix of color quality AND grade.
One thing is for certain, combine top quality color with high grade (MS67 and higher) and you've got a very pricey coin.
GSAGUY
Any chance of posting a scan of the MD?Thanks.Al
Also, isn't toning mainly the result of not properly storage a coin in the first place? If it is, can you imagine how many coins there are stuck in an attic in some binder that have fabulous toning? Wait until the owners figure out how much money is being commanded for these coins and I'll bet you will soon see a flood of beautiful toned coins on eBay.
While I will undoubtably purchase some toned coins for my collection, I will be extremely cautious to how much I pay over premium for most of them. After all, I am not rich!
ALL of these forms of storage cause toning.
peacockcoins
Yes, yes, the image is coming-by way of ANACONDA! Yes, I talked to Adrian for about a half-hour tonight and he'd like to take a look at it. He will also provide me with a high-quality digital scan at no charge. I will send the coin to him via registered/insured mail. I have never sent a coin via the mail so any suggestions would be helpful. I did try to scan the image but I think Adrian's offer is worthwhile. I'll post it as soon as it's ready (probably within a month...).
Bryan (GSAGUY) gave me some sound advice about this item, as has Gemtone and others.
Also, Evan Gale offered a full $2500 refund on the coin, though one of my trades already sold (the '60-O Seated Dollar). How's that?!
Based on all the responses, I am keeping the coin indefinitely. I found a unique piece and I look forward to showing it to you all.
Thanks for all the feedback!
Sincerely,
Barney
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Altho im not a collector of toned MD,I have seen the coin and it's a Beauty,both sides toned.Al
Thanks for the PM. For some reason, I can't send PM's to anyone, so I'll give you my response here. Hope you don't mind. I think it was a straight up, honest business deal, and, as being a self employed person, I really hate someone telling me that the amount of profit I make is too much. I think I should get the biggest profit I can. There is such funny money being paid for toned Morgans now that I don't think anyone should be accused of paying too much, cause it seems like there is always someone out there willing to pay more (<----means you Barney
Can someone tell me/us if there is a different procedure for using the image link above as opposed to the hyperlink above (besides not having to title the image link)?
86MDObv
barneys86rev
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>ouch >>
You got that right. And what is really sad is that we have many people who buy toners like this on Teletrade, at Heritage, and the other auction houses in the mid three figures, then continuously hype toned Morgans, and list them for well into four digits. It's one of the biggest rackets in the coin business today, and why I am taking so much flack from some people lately. It's nothing but a con game.
Whether the image is locatable or not, your point that the sellers of Monster Toned Morgans are putting them on the retail market for multiples of what they are paying for them is welcomed information. I'd like to hear from Anaconda, Tonelover, or anyone else who deals in selling Monster toned Morgans to hear their side of the story and just what their buy back policies are.
<< <i>Actually, I thought it went for $800 in a Goldberg Auction that was also biddable on Ebay. >>
That's correct. To be precise it brought $700 plus 15% juice for a total of $805.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>hard to believe someone would pay $2500 or whatever for the coin above. I have overpaid for a toner or two but that one takes the cake IMO. >>
Gorgeous coin I would pay the $800 that it got on Ebay. >>
Yeah, I was thinking $800 the way Teletrade prices have been last few months. Wouldn't pay it, but would expect to see it. Too bad he got taken like that. I think I would have kept it to myself, though. It was heart wrenching to read the emotion in his posts.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
i think today it is a 550 to 750 coin including the juice
michael
<< <i>I enjoyed my one day in Long Beach yesterday; saw the Texas Bullion dude (sorry I wasn't able to find you again to say good-bye and thanks), Bryan (aka GSAGUY), and other board members in the LA area; also talked to Larry Shapiro whom I will meet later. Carl Wohlforth and I had dinner and talked coins, of course. He had some interestingly-toned nickels that may or not be AT.
Although I was looking for a "CC" toned Morgan, I found MY coin-a toned Morgan that might be worthy of ANACONDA-hope to talk to you about it, Adrian...it's a PCGS 64 1886 which has original bag rainbow toning over rich original lustre on BOTH sides! It didn't come cheap, but I was able to trade my small type set for the coin. Evan Gale traded me the coin straight-up for the following:
1917 type 1 FH SLQ PCGS 64 (my cost $400) (he offered $270)
1925 Cali Comm PCI 64 (my cost $250) (he offered only $150 because of the PCI slab)
1935 Conn Commem NGC 65 w/Box (my cost $600) (he offered $450)
1936 Oregon Comm PCGS 65 (my cost $200) (he offered $150)
1860-O Seated $1 PCGS 61 (my cost $1200) (he offered $980)
1926 Indian $10 PCGS 63 (my cost $500) (he offered $500 >>
<< <i>Carl Wohlforth was with me when I bought the coin and he had severe reservations. The seller held firm to his price and I went for it. I do have problems with impulse buying and that's just something I have to learn from, as is the case with the '86.
Forturnately, I HAVE learned from the experience. I will stay away from coin collecting indefinitely until I get other facets of my life in order. I came into $30K in March and sank $10K in my friend's biofuel business (12% guaranteed interest for one year), bought a classic '59 Chevy (ask LucyBop about it!) and put the rest in the bank.
I consider this just another example of "love at first sight." The coin was there, I had a collection of coins that I had already spent too much for, so it was essentially a trade. Yes, it was a loss, but again, caveat emptor, and I did not even know what an '86 booked for until I posted the pic here! Definitely a foolish venture, but so be it.
You play high stakes here. As an ex? gambler, you need to know the rules-and you need to be one step ahead of others to make the $. If one is only a collector, it's no big deal. I enjoyed collecting coins in the 2 years that I was involved, but knowing how much I lost was a bit difficult to swallow. But that's business, fellas. >>
I had no idea what this thread was about, but after reading BOTH threads and the excerpt I have quoted above, I must state that Barney's sad tale establishes many important points, but NOT that collectors should avoid high end toned coins.
Important points that can be gleaned form Barney's 2 threads are as follows:
1. NEVER buy any coin as an investment when you don't know it's wholesale and retail value (the buy/sell spread).
2. NEVER buy a coin in which you are not familiar with it's marketability- Value and marketability are very different. A common MS63 $20 saint is quite marketable - it can be quickly sold at virtually any coin show at a consistent level - sometimes the buy/sell spread is $5 - conversely, a 1927-S FH MS65 Standing Liberty Quarter with a Greysheet bid of $120,000 could be an absolute disasterous purchase if those few high end collectors who are specialists in Standing Liberty Quarters do not accept either the FH designation or the numerical MS65 grade as it might sell for less than $10,000 because that is a very specialized field and the collector who knows SLQs is going to insist that his MS65 really has a FH before he pays 6 figures for the key to his set. There are very few knowledgeable "collectors" who need their egos stroked so they can have a #1 Registry set like the person who paid almost $40K for a Proof 1963 Lincoln penny that the paper insert said PR70DCAM when the actual coin was at best a spotted PR65. That coin was NOT marketable and the only reason that particular collector was able to sell it was because PCGS was willing to buy it to take it off the market as it had become a public relations disaster.
3. NEVER make an impulse purchase of any coin or collectable that you are unfamiliar with - almost a 100% guarantee that you'll loose money.
4. NEVER ignore good advice from someone who has a knowledge that exceeds your own knowledge when it comes to spending your hard-earned money on any collectable.
5. NEVER pay a lot of money for any COLLECTABLE that you've fallen in love with unless you are prepared to own it solely for the reason that it's something you love and don't care if you are able to recoup your cost.
In the end - the fact that this coin was toned was NOT the root cause of Barney's loss. Falling in love with an attractive coin certainly contributed to this, but no one cheated Barney - He made a lot of mistakes every one listed above -in the end, though unfortunate and economically painful, Barney was 100% of the cause of his economic loss. He made the decisions that led to his loss, with no pressure or compulsion to trade his coin for something that a dealer valued at $2500 - kinda like an amature card player getting into a high-stakes poker came with a bunch of professional card players. I don't think he would get "lucky" and be the big winner at the end of the night.
Barney then compounded his errors by placing it in an auction in which he apparently choose not to protect the value of his coin - I don't know what the market was for that toned coin when he sold it, but in today's market, I would agree with Eric that it's worth in the area of $1200 - might be worth a bit more, maybe a bit less depending on what it looks like in hand, but it's not a $2000 coin (in my opinion) even in today's market, and I would make an educated guess that the market for toned coins is a little better today than it was 18 months ago. A better way to sell that coin would have been to consign it to a dealer whao regularly sells nice toned coins. He may have been able to get a higher net price as when the dealer has no money invested in the commodity, if he accepts a small % of hte sale price, he still amles money with no carrying costs - putting 1 coin in his case or 1 coin on his website is not a costly proposition.
This transaction tells us a lot about how NOT to buy and sell items that you're not familiar with. This thread also has a lot of good information about the value of high end toned coins and that they are truly an area that requires an expertise beyond merely looking at the greysheet. This is an area that requires the collector to do his homework BEFORE taking the plunge - but those with a good working knowledge of coins and specifically toned are quite comfortable with high quality MONSTER toned coins - they are quite addictive and to those that love them - they are very saleable to a very selective (and Fussy) group of collectors.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>nice analysis newmismatist >>
Thanks Craig - I think this is an excellent Thread for any Newbie and even a seasoned collector to read carefully before they jump into an area of the coin market in which they are NOT familiar. There are some good lessons and good points and even Barney, painful as it might have been, realized that he had made several mistakes - But with all mistakes, one must carefully analyze the causes and and the lessons to be learnd. Barney concluded that the lesson learned was DON'T collect coins - I personally think that in the end he made yet another mis-judgment as one can both enjoyably collect coins AND not suffer losses like Barney experienced. I think that an astute collector can profitably enjoy collecting coins and I for one, try to do just that - but it is not luck, it results from becoming very knowledgeable in the area that you choose to collect. Great collections of eye-appealing coins are usually highly sought after.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
I finally got to see the infamous "Barney" toner.
I hope it looks better in hand. It's certainly a monster by any definition. But a $2500 monster?
I've got two that I wouldn't trade even up for it and another that's not far off and I sure wouldn't have paid that kind of money for any of them. Now that I think about it, I didn't pay that much far all three of them combined.
Anyway, glad I finally got to see it after reading so much about it for so long. It is a spectacular looker, if it were for sale somewhere, I'd make an offer.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff