Perfect example of why ICG is sometimes suspect

FC57Coins

Here's a perfect example of why I sometimes shy away from ICG graded coins. In this particular case the coin in question is a 1955 Franklin half in supposedly MS67 condition. In that condition the coin should have few, if any marks visible to the naked eye. Now, this isn't to say that the coin need be perfect, but certainly at this grade you should be "hunting" for imperfections as opposed to having it slap you in the face. These are the kind of coins which in my opinion put into question an entire company's reputation.

ICG MS67 Franklin Reverse look - at the numerous hits on the bell

Regards,

Frank

airplanenut

It was the scanner

EVillageProwler

BTW, you can pick *any* reputable 3rd-party grading service and find a coin and say, ``what the heck were they smoking!''

I'm not trying to say that ICG is good (or bad); just that a single example shows only that we're dealing with human beings...

Regards,

EVP

keets

what does the other side look like?

al h.

Blade

Cool mint set toning. Yep - a couple hits from other coin's rims. Unfortunately a noticable location. Nice surfaces otherwise.

I'm no Frankline expert. The one in my type set is PCGS MS64 FBL. The overall contact marks are worse than the one here. Would this typically grade MS65?

keets

referring back to kranky's report from the ANA summer class, the reverse typically won't raise the overall grade but it may lower it. i think to make an objective judgement on a coin the obverse MUST be seen.

al h.

braddick

<< <i>BTW, you can pick *any* reputable 3rd-party grading service and find a coin and say, ``what the heck were they smoking!'' I'm not trying to say that ICG is good (or bad); just that a single example shows only that we're dealing with human beings... Regards, EVP >>



I agree in general terms, specifically though: Show me a "bad" PCGS or NGC MS67 Franklin.
I haven't seen one yet. Oh, tons of "off" MS66's, but not a terrible MS67 (yet! I can't wait to be proven wrong).

FC57Coins

Not to say that ALL ICG coins are misgraded, but as I have looked at numerous Franklin samples, and I am limiting my judgement to Franklins because those are the coins I know best, my assessment of their grading is that it usually runs about a point below PCGS and probably NGC in a lot of cases. This is an extreme example where I think the fumbled. When you grade a Franklin MS67, it had better be an unbelievably clean and striking coin. This coin makes me kinda shudder.

ICG MS67 Franklin obverse

ICG MS67 Franklin reverse

Frank

LucyBop

At Long Beach I was able to hold and examine a 1957 PCGs MS67 FBL. This coin was flawless and had no dings/bagmarks anywhere. None! Coin was flawless. I passed up on a 58d MS66 FBL beacuse it had some nasty dings on the bell..... I was alittle surprised to even find this on a ms66........

FC57Coins

Lucy:

You can have a few minor dings on them MS66FBL, but they should be minor. On most of the MS66FBL's that I have seen you would have a hard time seeing the imperfection without some magnification.

Bytheway, 1956-58 Franklins in MS66FBL aren't all that uncommon.

Frank

LucyBop

Correct from 56-58 they are common and easily attainable, but the ms67 was a treat to see.

LucyBop

Also saw a 59d ms66FBL, which is a harder find, to bad Lucy didn't have the cash!

DCAMFranklin

Those are excellent pictures, however, when you are talking about Franklins with that much color it is absolutely impossible to grade from a picture. I believe I see what you feel is contact from another coin's rim. However, there is near-white luster showing through on the obverse and those "hits" may be tiny flecks without tone. I'm not trying to defend the grade. I am, as usual, defending my position that it extremely difficult to accurately grade by picture or scan. With nice white coins and very clear pictures it is definitely possible to estimate within one grade. However, if you are dealing with a DMPL Morgan or any coin with extreme color it can be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to determine certain attributes of the coin. That is my opinion.

wingedliberty

Thanks for sharing with us another example of ICG overgrading.
At the Tampa show, a dealer has several ICG boxes of proof-70DCAM statehood quarters.
My PCGS/NGC 70's are flawless, these had minor contact marks. They would have been PCGS/NGC 68-9.
I also saw numerous ICG Franklins at the show. They were grossly overgraded as well.
I am sure that dealer would take a loss just to get himself out of the ICG hole. ICG is a blight on
numismatics. I guess by now everyone knows how I feel about ICG. This is based on my personal
experience and the experience of my friends, who are both dealers and collectors. ICG has the best
holder in the industry, its too bad their grading went down the toilet.


Brian.

FC57Coins

DCAMFranklins:

While I don't disagree with you that grading coins from a picture is next to impossible, here is why I object to the grade assigned to this particular Franklin:

1. The ANA Grading Standards for MS67 state the following: MS-67. Has full original luster and sharp strike for date and mint. May have three or four very small contact marks and one more noticeable but not detracting mark. On comparable coins, one or two small single hairlines may show under magnification, or one or two partially hidden scuff marks or flaws may be present. Eye appeal is exceptional. Copper coins have lustrous original color.

2. While I can't at this moment find the standard used by PCGS, maybe someone can fill in the void here, I do believe that the PCGS standard is even more restrictive.

3. Having seen numerous business strike Franklins in my day, the marks on the bell (reeding contact mark on the bell above the top bell lines) would only be allowable on an MS65 coin and below. An MS66 coin might have the ding on the bell and maybe one more somewhere else where it's not quite as noticeable.

In addition, 1955 Franklins are notorious for heavy bag marks. This is not to say that there is an MS67 for this date out there, but I seriously doubt if any knowledgeable collector would submit such a gem to a secondary coin grading service (my humble opinion). In addition, in the last month or so I have seen a plethora of MS67 ICG graded coins. Why would there be so many ICG coins out there and not a single PCGS graded coin? There are, but they're expensive as hell - which brings up the final objection to this coin. If this coin WAS infact an MS67, it wouldn't be selling for $500 or so dollars that the owner was asking for. Bottom line, you have to know that even the seller doubted the coin from the onset by virtue of the price it was being offered at.

Yet another example of buy the coin, not the holder

Frank

DCAMFranklin

Sorry Frank your reply is full of it. There are plenty of collectors, not dealers, that submit their coins to services other than PCGS, as they don't believe they get a fair shake from a 3rd party grading service that knows who submitted the coin and how little the submitter paid in fees over the past few years. They feel much more confident sending their coins to 3rd party grading services that are TRULY 3rd party. Many collectors of Franklins in particular appreciate the fact that coins are actually submitted to an independent CPA firm and then go to the ICG grading room without anyone in the grading room knowing the name or volumn of the submitter.

You simpley DON'T know the cause of the marks on the bell. In fact, you don't know they are marks at all. Trying to grade a coin by a picture is a FRAUD! Period. I judge and grade a coin up close and personal. Take it from someone that knows a lot more about Franklins than you do, that is the only way to accurately assess the coin. That is the only way you know the true condition of the coin.

Regarding the "plethora" of MS-67 coins you reportedly have seen. If you are attempting to imply you have seen a "plethora" of MS-67 ICG Franklins, then your statement is disingenuous. They just aren't out there. If a collector doesn't trust PCGS prior to sending the coin to ICG, just why would you feel he/she would feel confident about cracking the coin out of its ICG holder to then send it to PCGS for a new holder and the much higher price? The FACT is they wouldn't feel good about that, so they sell the coin in its ICG holder. If you haven't seen the coin up close and personal then be wise enough to withhold your opinion. You just don't know!

LucyBop

Good exchange gentlemen, I think both of you have made some valid points. I do tend to side with Franks point of view, but these type of post help me grow as a collector, hats off to both of you!