Impressions & Images from the "Showdown"

shylock

Wow, what a trip. A few impressions I jotted down during my long plane ride home (transcribed from a dozen post-its and 2 vomit bags).

Special thanks to the 3 owners of these beautiful collections whose quality was only rivaled by the the 3 ladies of PCGS (BJ Searls, Carol Bennett, Gayle Kean) who made viewing them a pleasure. BJ deserves a BIG feather in her cap for pulling this off.

For a comparison of the sets I'll defer to Rick Snow's post in Spooly's thread. Anyone who knows anything about this series knows the difficulty of finding quality coins and had to be overwhelmed by these 3 sets sitting side by side. The connoisseurs all agreed the Blay collection was extra special for its painstaking consistency you'd have to see to believe. All 3 collections were amazing, and the quantity of finest knowns in one location became staggering on Thursday when Ira Davidoff appeared with his complete set in hand. Tim (Lakesammman) and I looked over his set on top of the case that held the other 3 -- unreal! Walking onto the bourse floor in search of 1 or 2 nice coins was difficult after this endless stream of superb gems.

The best part was the people, many of whom I was finally able to attach a face to an email address or forum nic. They turned a great show into a real vacation, making me comfortable from the get go. Very impressive. Stewart Blay is all you'd expect him to be as far as copper expertise and great stories, but is simply a nice guy as well.

Thanks to all 3 collectors, PCGS and the Long Beach Collectibles Expo I was able to take a couple images of the display itself.


Jim Halperin (Heritage) & Tim (Lakesammman) at the PCGS table.
Carol "Greta Garbo" Bennett waving off the paparazzo and BJ "Annie Oakley" Searls attending the PCGS booth.
Courtesy of the Long Beach Coins, Stamps and Collectibles Expo

BJ and me

I'd like to have imaged every coin but it would have taken 2 days. I managed to image many which I'll add to this post soon. But I have to conclude with Stewart's 1877 PCGS MS66RD "Golden Princess" which is, well.......


Courtesy of the Long Beach Coins, Stamps and Collectibles Expo

merz2

shylock
I must say if that is an example of what you saw,I'm jealous I first started collecting the IH's in circulated(XF) condition.I couldn't afford better.Next to the Lincolns the IH's are the best for me.I love copper!!! I don't think i've seen a finer example of one than that 1877.Stewart,you are to be commended on your eyes.I probably don't want to see your Lincoln Proofs.

shylock

The reverse:

Spooly

Sweet! I wish I could have gone! Sounds like it was alot of fun!

IrishMike

I am making my reservations for FUN in two weeks. I can't pass up the two 68's and the 1856, nope I can't do it, nope nope nope Sounds like the showdown was the best part of the show. Every one who participated and set it up deserves mucho kudos.

Edited to add: Thanks for the great picture Paul, what a terrific coin. Hope to see you in Orlando.

shylock

Merz -- the 1877, which Stewart bought raw in a Stacks auction, is all he cracked it up to be. I would travel 3000 miles to image it alone, and wish I could find common dates as nice.

Here's another from the Blay set, a difficult coin to image due to its tone. This 1862 MS67 is one of the most appealing copper-nickels you'll ever find with subtle peripheral toning I could just barely capture. You really have to see this one in person:



His 1900 MS67RD (!):

mdwoods

Shylock, do you think the 1877 has a good shot at making MS67? It sure looks like it meets the requirements from your pictures. Which are extremely nice BTW. Mark

merz2

Paul
Your pics are great.I'm quite sure I'd have drooled all over the case.I'll bet they had to clean the glass after every person. I can't even imagine sets like those.I am humbled by those coins.My Lincoln Proofs look good but I'm not sure if they'd stand up along coins of that kind.If the Lincoln Proofs are that good,I'm glad just to be in the top five with them.

IrishMike

That 1900 is amazing, one of the nicest looking IHC's I have ever seen.

Lakesammman

Paul:

Great job on the pics - the toning on the 1862 is spectacular! The 1877 is the only one I've ever lusted after...what a monster. Thanks again for the photo tips while there - I have the lights on order.

Is that really me in the Hawaiin shirt.....gotta start eating salads again!

shylock

Mark -- I can't see PCGS giving a 67 in this date unless it was slapping them in the face. This coin may merit it compared to others, but the scrutiny they'd receive would put the brakes on market grading.

There are two ways to look at it. Technically it falls short in strike. But compared to other 1877s they've graded on a curve due to common strike weakness, why not? This PCGS MS66RD has the same gorgeous color but is clearly weaker struck. The only other image I have, c/o Rick Snow, is an older photograph of the 66RD Epstein coin.



Here are two extremely tough dates from the Ally collection that won "best in show". Both are 66RDs:




An equally tough date in 66RD from the Richard collection that was supreme:


Courtesy of the Long Beach Coins, Stamps and Collectibles Expo

toothpuller

Unbelievable coins.

Paul, Thanks for the images.

Cocoinut

Simply gorgeous coins! Wish I could have made it to Long Beach.

Great photography as well. Thanks for posting the pictures.

Jim

shylock

The one person I was most curious to meet was Tim/Lakesammman. I've had an year long email correspondence with him and you can't help but wonder what someone is like in realtime. Turns out he's one of the most down to earth, quick witted guys you'd ever want to hang with. And someone I continue to learn from. Sharp as a knife in his own laid back way. But enough about him...

One last coin for tonight from the Blay set that blew every diehard collector away. The 1886 T2 gets a lot of attention, but try finding a T1 like this 66RD:

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Paul

It was a pleasure to meet you !! I just go home this morning via the red eye.My only glitch occurred at the LAX airport when a couple of security inspectors who failed to attend the showdown wanted to see my coins.
The shots look great and are certainly better than I can ever compose.I'm sure there are more to be posted.
I really enjoyed sharing my coins with the other collectors.I am also amazed how well all the collectors got along together.I was also enamoured how much fun Ira Davidoff was having during his own showdown with his set vs. mine and the others
We finally got Rick Snow on the message boards

Tim - For the time being,I am married to my 1877.The 1877 coming up in January is suppose to be a real nice ms66 red.When I see you again I can tell you its history.It was great to see you again.

Merz - I got to meet Doug Wright on Saturday

Stewart

littlewicher

Yes! We finally got a pic of Carol!

shylock

Stewart - Hope security at LAX enjoyed the show. My two lamps caused some tension at Kennedy on my way out there.

I already regret not taking even more pics, but perhaps that could be done at some future date in a more conducive environment. I think we should crack them all out of their damn plastic and get some really nice images

Was fortunate enough to meet Doug and Jom during my last hour there, both great guys. Jom & I searched the floor for Elcontador (Jeff) but it was like finding a needle in a haystack at that point. He introduced me to Toningintheblood and Strat along the way.


A few more keys from the Blay set (the 1868 & 72 are 65s, the 1875 is 66):





And his MS67RD 1878 (!):


All images courtesy of the Long Beach Coins, Stamps and Collectibles Expo

shylock

Another image of the 1877 that really shows the lustre (sorry, but I can't get enough of this amazing coin):


Courtesy of the Long Beach Coins, Stamps and Collectibles Expo

Stewart knew I'd recently bought an 1857 FE with major obverse strike doubling, and brought his PCGS certified DDO of this date for comparison. Mine has the same doubling of the denticles on the upper rim, date and eagle, but lacks the doubling of the eye & beak that his clearly shows:

1857 DDO MS64

goose3

Fantastic pictures paul!!
that 77 is breathtaking.

That FE DDO you have linked looks exactly like one I have in EF40 PCGS. Mine too has a broken wing tip.

kranky

Great, great photos, shylock! I don't know how hard it was to get special dispensation to take photos but I'm glad you got it. I can't even imagine what it would be like to see entire sets of the quality represented in the pictures here. You guys who got to see them in person were very fortunate.

shylock

Kranky -- besides the owners of the sets, BJ Searls went out of her way to make this possible. It involved moving their computer to the floor to make table room for me, then her or Carol going into the display cases to hand me each coin I picked out. All this while others were examining coins, and of course they had to keep their eye on every slab once removed from the case. They did it in their typical friendly way but went beyond the call of duty on this one.

There are quite a few images I'm not happy with because they're not close to being good representations of the coins, so I'm leaving them out. At home there are some coppers I take 20+ images of, with different lighting and camera settings, just to get one half decent shot. All things considered I'm happy with the number of acceptible images. The 1877 Blay coin was the only one I played it safe with and took many images of.

An example of one of the "mistake" images: Stewart's 1869/69 65RD had a piece hay from the Showdown props sneak onto the slab (#%$#@).


Here are 2 consecutive dates that are nearly impossible to find without major problems, let alone attractive. Both MS66RDs from the Blay set:


All images courtesy of the Long Beach Coins, Stamps and Collectibles Expo

Lakesammman

Shylock - the numismatic and photographic savant - keep 'em coming! Thanks again for the lessons on photographing coins - can't wait to post improved images with my set.

For those of you who don't know Paul, he has a photographic memory for coins. At the showdown, he was telling me the attributes of the REVERSE of the coins, even before having them removed to view for the first time!

Here's a bonus point question - who's the dealer to the left of Halperin in the first photo??

Nic

Thank you Shylock. K

shylock

(last image) Blay 1876 MS67RD:


Courtesy of the Long Beach Coins, Stamps and Collectibles Expo

IrishMike

Paul, is that weak N in ONE on the 69/69 typical?

CarlWohlforth

Thanks for the images Shylock!

Thanks to Richard, The Ally Collection, Stewart Blay and BJ and the PCGS gang for making this possible! I heard there was a 4'th set there, but I didn't get to see that.

I am not a copper guy. I'm not a MS guy either. But I too was totally blown away by these collections. To look at the numbers these sets are within 1 point of each other. But to see them in person makes points seem silly. To argue which set is better you have to get into comparing each coin in each set. Not just by the numbers but in person.

I guess IHC collectors look at specific dates knowing how hard they are. Due to ignorance I don't. I'm just looking at three cases of red Indian cents. All the coins were great. If some expert could actually pick the worst coin of all three collections I would really love to own a coin like that!

But even after seeing so many gem Indians in a row there were a few that stood out. These stood out to me because, at a distance, they looked different. They were the ones in each collection that had a different color.

Fairlaneman

Paul:

Thank You very much. Enjoyable and Your Enthusiasium is Contagious. We as Forumn members are Darn Lucky to have a Member like yourself around these Boards.

Thanks Again.

Ken

shylock

Mike - On Stewart's 1869 it's more obvious than most, but the "shallow N" reverse hub (Rick Snow will slap your hand if you say "weak N") was used on all bronze cents until 1870 when the "bold N" reverse hub was introduced.

As per a Snow Longacre's Ledger article from 1999: From 1870 through 1872 both reverse styles exist, with the shallow N a rarer 'type' coin for 71 & 72. Snow has just recently listed them separately on his Pink Sheet. All of the 1873s are bold N except on some varieties (some of the cl3 S-2s & Doubled Liberty die 2), and all coins from 1874 thru 1876 are bold N. Obviously, all the 1877s have the shallow N, the last year it is known.

There's an interesting article in the most recent Ledger about an 1876 shallow N that appeared to show up on Ebay. If you click my Fly-In Club link you can read it in the Ledger Archives.

shylock

Thanks Ken and everyone else for the kind words. This is actually what I enjoy doing and my own form of relaxation, so I'll in turn thank those who let me have some fun!

IrishMike

Carl, I have collected them for many years, I still remember the first time I saw a high grade IHC, I was mesmorized, to think that copper and bronze coins can remain in that state of preservation for over a hundred years, is just amazing.

Paul, I know about the shallow N on the 1877, and it looks like the one on the 69. Maybe Rick would just chuckle at me rather than slap me around.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Paul,

Perhaps you could put up a picture of my 1871 ms 65 red shallow N reverse.I would love to see it......and so would Irish Mike

Stewart

aknow

Paul:
Thank you so much for the pictures. I really wish I could have gone to this show. It would have
been a fantastic education.
Dr. Steve

Lakesammman

Since the subject of shallow N's has come up, mhere are a few more examples. Here is a 1872 shallow N reverse, this a PCGS 1872 64R. It's now rare but may become semi-rare now that collectors are aware of it.


link

Here is a pic of the 1876 mentioned by Shylock - I really thought this was a great discovery but the jury is out as to whether it's real or counterfeit - hopefully other specimens will become available to clarify.


Text

Keyrock

Wow ( I am speechless ) ,


Thank you all for sharing (Stewart, Richard and Ally Collections) and of course Shylock!!

Rich

BJ

I have to say that I really have the best job in the world. Not only do I get to play with the Set Registry which is more fun than you can imagine, but I get to handle some incredible collections and meet some truly wonderful people. Special thanks goes out to Paul for taking these fantastic images and sharing them with everyone who didn't attend the show. And of course, thanks goes out to the owners of the Ally Collection and Richard Collection for allowing us to display their awesome collections. And then there's the star, Stewart Blay. It is his enthusiam and unbridled passion for his hobby that sparked the showdown from the very beginning. Thank you, Stewart!

To all who stopped by the booth to say hello, it was a pleasure meeting you. I look forward to seeing you again at future shows. Next up is the FUN show. Perhaps another showdown?

shylock

Stewart -- it's my turn to get my hand slapped since I don't have an image of your 1871. I know, I know...(can hear him saying in disgust "you didn't image the 71??!!" as he reads this). There were so many great coins I went into copper shock and missed many I'm now grinding my teeth over. Hopefully I'll be able to make up for that someday.

SportsModerator2

This was one of the most enjoyable shows I've ever worked.
It was great to meet so many new members that I haven't met at previous shows.
And as always, it was great to see the "regulars" again

Even as a non collector I could appreciate how beautiful all three sets were!

Shylock..next time give me some warning and I'll look up

shylock

Nice try Carol, but BJ did everything short of pulling your head up by your hair to get you to pose for that particular shot. Our loss, but I understand the tenuous nature of being the Forum Empress.

IrishMike

I post this to defend my honor and not get coin slapped, and I quote Q. Bowers, (talking about the characteristics of striking on the 1877) "The lower portion of the N in ONE, and, to a lesser extent, the tops of EN in CENT on the reverse is weak (shallow).

Paul knows the spirit this was intended.

Lakesammman

I don't know what's wrong with weak - if never heard someone criticize a coin by saying it was "shallowly" struck. The details of the N's ARE weak and intentionally so!

The one that gets my goat is the ornamented (aka harp) shield reverse on the 1858 patterns - have never seen a single ornament on one!

EagleEye

As a seller of coins I don't want to have to explain to everyone that a "weak N" 1871 is not a "Weakly struck" coin. That is why I promote it as the shallow N, which it is.

The die is just as hard on both, but shallower on the "shallow N".

Everyone should join the Fly-In Club and learn the wealth of info in the "Longacre's Ledger" back issues.

EagleEye

Once again, here is my take on the showdown. Thanks for the images Paul.

***************************************************************************

The showdown has begun!

PCGS has a great setup with cowboy stuff all around: Guns, whips, spurs, handcuffs, hay and cowboy hats. They don't need the handcuffs because these guys are TAKING NO PRISONERS!

These sets are awesome! I looked over all three sets and gave each coin a "tumbs up", Thumbs down" or "Right on" for their respective grade. It's obvious that the clear winner in "quality for the grade" is Stewart Blay. His coins are all in their original holders (not consecutively numbered or recently regraded) Because of this there are many coins that have a shot at a higher grade: 1861, 1862(!), 1863, 1877 (A WOW), 1886 T1, 1888, 1893, 1900 (!), 1905, 1908, 1908-S (Prooflike). Only about 7 coins were LQ enough to warrant buying better examples. None had any major problems like spots, weak strikes, or RB color. Outstanding!

The Ally collection is also outstanding and is ranked second only because of the quality of some of the tough dates in the late 1860's and early 1870's. His 1877 is right on for the grade. The CN pieces are all exceptional. Many of the 1880's are exceptional as well. The set was recently sent in to get consecutive serial numbers, and was regraded at that time. As such, it no wonder that I saw only a few possible upgrade potential coins. 1873 Open 3, 1865 Fancy 5, 1885, 1886 T1, 1887, 1888, 1890, 1894, 1898, 1899.

The Richard collection is a worthy contender and is consecutively numbered as well. A few upgrade potentials are the 1863, 1864 CN, 1865, 1875 and 1899. A few including the 1877 were a bit LQ, and hurt the overall appeal. Everyone first looks at the 1877 first and if it dissapoints, it hurts the first impression. The set is exceptional, but does need a little work. I know the owner has a good eye.

I will report fully on the showdown in the upcoming issue of the Longacre's Ledger, The journal of the Fly-In Club: www.flyinclub.org

Rick Snow

oreville

The pleasure is all mine.

This is what collecting is all about. I am trying to learn about the mint state grades of the Indian head cents and I have a feeling this is helping me on a fast track!

I would love to see more pics of the other coins.

Thanks to Stew, Ally, Tim, and, Shylock, Rick and anyone else who made this all possible. This is an orgy of looking at Indian head cents and I freely admit I do not have one like them!

shylock

Oreville -- There are a couple I'd like to "replay" with huge 500x500 jpegs which might help with everyone's grading of this series.

"Mint fresh look" is an overused phrase but there's no other way to describe Blay's 1900 MS67RD. This date is normally found with mellowed color, as well as some degree of spotting and/or toning patches. On this example the surfaces are so pristine you feel like you could scoop up the mint frost as it oozes down the fields. If you net grade the few inconsequential 'problems' against all its attributes, why not MS68? A fleck, a few light contact marks, and a few slightly weak feathertips on the obverse, while the reverse should be in a guidebook showing what Indian cents look like in a perfect world. Try to imagine what this would look like if it weren't imaged through plastic.

tradedollarnut

I wonder if that coin came from the original roll I saw at the 1986 FUN show Every coin was a blazer - sure wish I had bought it !!!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Trade Dollar Nut - This was my first "slabbed" Indian cent purchase

in 1989 at the Pittsburgh ANA

Stewart

Lakesammman

Shylock:

Great shots, especially the reverse! Wow....thanks for sharing it!

IrishMike

That is a superb coin, especially for a 1900, amazing, amazing, amazing.

shylock

The 1886 Type 2, whose modified obverse by Charles Barber featured a lower feather formation, is one of the conditionally rare type coins of the series that gets a lot of attention. In its shadow is the underrated Type 1, a set stopper for many of the high grade collectors. One of the few nice ones to appear recently sold for over 7K in 65RD. The Blay 66RD made every collector at the Showdown take a step back, and go in for another look. This coin is a freak from the middle of the 1880s dark period, and gives you a glimpse of what those other deep red examples looked like before the toning set in. Pop 5/0, can't imagine a nicer one.

Lakesammman

The 1886 type 1 you provided the link to - was that at the showdown in one of the sets?? I remember seeing it at the auction - it was magnificent, as the price would suggest. Wonder how long it will stay in a 65 holder.....?

lordmarcovan

The last time I collected Indians by date, it was a circulated set, back in my poorer days.

The sight of some of those makes me want to paint my face and dance around the fire!