Variety recognition by PCGS

Tundertron

I own two very nice seated dollars that I would like encapsulated by PCGS. The first one is an 1844 double die reverse and the second is an 1870-CC close CC. PCGS makes it clear that you shall not 'make up' your own varieties, but what if they really do exist. Is there some way to have PCGS amend their numbering system?

Tundertron

Would PCGS give the 25 cent 'pissing minuteman' variety a coin number? If so, how could it be done?

Conder101

PCGS recognizes, relatively, very few varieties even if they are shown in the standard reference books. Its only been in the last year and a half or so that they have recognized the 1979 near and far date 1979 SBA's and they have been listed in the Redbook for over 20 years. What you have to do is get ahold of a pop report and look to see what varieties they do list. If your variety isn't listed there then most likely they will not recognize it on the holder.

And no they will not recognize or list the "pissing minuteman quarter".

Tundertron

Thank you for the response Michael. The minuteman post was meant to be facetious.

EVillageProwler

I own two very nice seated dollars that I would like encapsulated by PCGS. The first one is an 1844 double die reverse and the second is an 1870-CC close CC.

Tunderton,

If your '44 dollar is a business strike, then I think you mean DDO. All business strike '44 dollars are DDO's.

As for your '70-CC, there are six (or, five -- I'm doing this from memory) reverse dies used. The diagnostics used by the LSCC does rely on the positioning of the mintmark. Little research is done on Seated Dollar die varieties. (The most comprehensive I know of is by a West Coast dealer who had 10 years' worth of notes stolen many years ago!) As far as we know, the scarcest variety of the '70-CC is the one that was discovered about 12 years ago by a Seated Dollar specialist in upstate NY.

Finally, every With Motto Seated Dollar I've ever seen (whose grade is high enough for me to discern enough detail) -- proofs and business strikes alike -- exhibit reverse die doubling in the motto. Sometimes in the feathers too.

Regards,

EVP

EVillageProwler

BTW, Tim, if you wish to discuss more about Seated Dollars, just PM me or email me. Seated Dollars is my favorite series, and one that I probably also am most familiar!

EVP

KINCOIN

Conder101
Collector
Will they ever list the pissing man quarter

Tundertron

Thank you for the information EVP. My '44 seated dollar does exhibit the doubled die obverse and 'quad-stripes' on the reverse shield. As for the '70-CC, Breen lists 3 reverse dies for the 'wide' CC and only 1 for the 'close' CC. The '70-CC is the only seated dollar with the the 'close' CC variety. All '71, '72 and '73 CC's I have examined are of the 'wide' CC reverse dies. Other interesting varieties in the seated dollar series are the '48 'badge' (die chips on Liberty's drapery) and the '72 'extra digits ' (numerals embedded in the rock below Liberty) with both being rare, especially in true mint state condition. If PCGS recognizes minor die varieties in foreign coins, i.e. 'Arnprior' Canadian dollars I think they should step up and list some for the seated dollar collectors.

RotatedRainbows

Will they ever list the pissing man quarter

A die crack is NOT a variety, die cracks have NEVER been varieties and die cracks will NEVER be varieties. So they cannot list non varieties as varieties, die cracks can be SUB-VARIETIES but never be a separate variety. Now if they start listing varieties for all proof quarters then you might be able to get them to list it as a SUB variety but since they will NEVER list varieties for proof quarters it is a mute point. Time for a new subject.

Conder101

Well since PCGS doesn't list a LOT of major well known varieties, and since a die crack, even on a proof coin and even one that looks like the minute man is pissing, is a very minor die state of a VERY minor die variety (all coins are die varieties) it has about as much chance as the provibial snowball in h*ll of being listed.

Sorry, just a "statement of fact" as I see it.

EVillageProwler

Tim,

You really should take Breen's ``facts'' with a ton of salt. In his early days, he really was brilliant. By the time he wrote his Encyclopedia, much of his information was unreliable. By then, he had already started down the Syd Barrett walk of life. Unlike Syd (or David Crosby), he never made it back.

Breen never knew about the latest reverse die used by the '70-CC.

If you are interested in such stuff, I recommend that you join the Liberty Seated Collectors Club:
http://www.numismalink.com/lscc.html.

Regards,

EVP

Tundertron

Thanks EVP. I've been away from U.S. coin collecting too long (8 years!). It's going to take some time to catch up to speed again. One thing I would like to say to the younger (man, I can't believe I said that) constituents of this forum, is that you should enjoy the numismatic hobby and don't sweat the small stuff because life is too short. We are mere conservers to future generations of coin collectors. - Tim

dorkkarl

the by-product of pcgs not recognizing varieties is mis-grading of many early coins. there are plenty of overton, newcomb, sheldon, etc. varieties that are by nature weakly struck. if graded as a type-only, they will be under-graded every time. but if properly graded by variety, the grade would be much more accurate. the "varieties" that pcgs does use are utterly, 100% useless to me. it is another aspect where anacs, & even ngc blows away pcgs.

of course i understand the economics behind it. it takes a lot more time to research varieties than it does to just grade a coin.

K S