Type 2 reverse Lincoln Cents

commoncents

Does anyone know the values of 1997 & 1999 Type 2 reverse Lincoln Cents. The 2000 and 1998 years are the only ones that I can find prices for. Thanks in advance.

Rampage

There are none for 1997. Look in the red book for current "values." The 1999 is supposedly the harder one to find. Turn your private messages on so people can PM you. Go to your profile towards the top of your screen to do so.

coindaughter

Welcome, Commoncents!

morganbarber

For which years are Type 2s in existance? Is it possible that there are Type 2s for all years of Lincolns?

dpoole

Herre's a pretty good explanation of what to look for and why, from Ken Potter.

These are business strikes from specific proof dies, and are known only for the years 1998, 1999 and 2000, with the latter being the more common.

Conder101

Yes it is possible for there to be type 2 cents for all the years 1994 - 2002 but so far only 98, 99, and 2000 have been confirmed. And recently a 1993 type 1 cent has been confirmed. (All of the 93's should have had type 2 reverses.) What I keep wondering about is wheither or not there are any 1994-S through 2002-S proof cents with type 1 reverses? I mean if in at least three years a die made with the proof hub was accidently used for business strikes couldn't a die created with the busness strike hub be accidently sent out for "proofing" and then used to create proof coins? After all that is how the 1990 no S proof cent was created.

crito

I was hunting for these and came across a 1990 with proof style reverse. Don't know what to make of it. Is this common pre-1994?

crito

maybe they're not proof reverses at all. seems odd all 93 business strikes have type 2 reverses.

Conder101

All pre-1994 cents, BOTH business strike and proof, are supposed to have the "type 2" widely spaced AM reverse.

All 1994 and later business strikes cents are supposed to have the type 1 reverse with AM almost touching.

All 1994 and later proof cents are suppose to have the type 2 widely spaced AM reverses.

There has been one confirmed 1993 business strike with a type 1 reverse.

Business strike cents with type 2 reverses have been confirmed for 1998, 99, and 2000.

I have seen no reports of proof cents with type 1 close AM reverses. But I have to wonder if they exist, especially in the 1994 - 2002 era.

crito

thanks for the info Conder, just wonder how they came to the conclusion proof reverse dies were used on business strikes. Haven't seen one with frosting on the devices yet. That would convince me

oreville

I am convinced that the various Optometry Associations all contributed to the US Mint's variety fund to make lots of these variety #1 and #2's in the same year since 1998.

My eyes are sure of it.

I have found four of these 2000 type II reverses but before you get jealous just remember I incurred a aditional bill from the optomistist for a new prescription for my newly acquired astigmatism.

dpoole

That's right, Oreville.

I've decided the real value in the Type II's is buying from somebody else the cost of their incredible labor, going through rolls and rolls of Lincolns, looking for those things!

Conder101

<< <i>just wonder how they came to the conclusion proof reverse dies were used on business strikes. Haven't seen one with frosting on the devices yet. That would convince me >>



Well that's pretty easy. They were proof reverse dies because they were hubbed using designs that were only intended to be used on proof dies. Kind of like the 1999-W 1/10 and 1/4 oz gold eagles. All of the Philadelphia business strike dies and all of the San Francisco proof dies are hubbed in Philadelphia. The dies intended for S mint proofs are then sent elsewhere, at one time it was the Canadian mint I don't know if it still is, for polishing, "frosting", and chrome plating and then directly to the S mint. If a proof die got mixed in with the regular business strike dies and not sent out it would be used as a regular production die and produce coins with the same finish as the other business strike dies. But it would still be identifiable as a proof die because of the difference in design. Likewise the 1990 no S proof cent was a case where a business strike die got mixed in with a shipment of proof dies. It was polished, "frosted", chrome plated and used to strike proof coins but it is still identifiable as a business strike die.

crito

I fail to see any difference between the 1990 reverse I posted a pic of and the "proof reverse" diags on Potter's site.

It's the preparation of the die that differentiates a proof from a business strike. If there wasn't a mintmark on the 1999-W uncs, no one would be able to tell it wasn't a normal business strike. The dies were never prepared to be used as proofs.

The 1990 "No S" die, on the other hand, was obviously prepared to be used for striking proofs. Why someone forgetting to punch an S into the hub would suddenly make it a business strike die eludes me.

Thanks for the input though. Food for thought.

Conder101

Your 1990 doesn't show any difference from the type 2 on Potters site because there isn't any. The splitting of the designs into two different types didn't occur until 1994 and when they did it was actually the business strike design that was changed.



<< <i>It's the preparation of the die that differentiates a proof from a business strike. >>



Yes and after 1994 the preparation of of the dies between proof and business strike was different since different designs were used. On the 1999-W gold pieces that was a difference between the regular and proof dies. There may be other more subtle differences, I don't know.

On the 1990 no S the obverse die HAD to be a business strike die. Since 1985 the mintmark had been in the master die and therefor in ALL of the working hubs and working proof dies. (With the number of proof dies needed each year I doubt if they would need more than master die. At some point around that time they began putting the mintmark in the original models and preparing seperate master hubs for each mint.

crito

I thought it was 1990 when the switch from hand punched dies was made on lincolns, that's what I read in an ANA newsletter anyway (May 7, 2002.) In any case, my point was that it's at the final stage of production that a die becomes a proof die, regardless of when a mintmark is added to it. What happens when someone carves the wrong mintmak into a model? So a die with an O mintmark makes it into proof production at West Point (however unlikely,) miraculously they all become New Orleans business strikes. Doesn't make sense IMHO.

Conder101

The switch over from hand punching in 1990 was on the business strike dies. The Proof dies were switched over in 1985.

dakra

Conder101 et al...
Okay... along with my cherry picking... I had to go back through all my pennies!!! The attached file is a 1993 Penny with no mint mark. The A and the M is spaced very closely. Did I hit some sort of jackpot?

-David

commoncents

Dakra, I don't think the 1993 cents with the close AM are what we are looking for. I checked a roll of 1993 Lincoln's and they are all close AM's. I think the change was from 1992 to present. I may be wrong but I doubt that I have a full roll of rare Linconl cents.

dakra

You may be right... I actually came across two more 1993's with the same. The chance of me coming up with something rare...would be rare :-)

-Dave

ursabear

Welcome to the forum, commoncents! (What a great handle!)

I hope you enjoy your stay with us!

The pod grows...

robertpr

I understand the differences in the two varities you are referring to, but what is this?

crito

Clear and filled S mintmark. The official mint estimate was 599,000 of the type 2 as opposed to more than 3 million of the type 1.

Conder101

Well Dahra and Commoncents posts about their 1993 cents made me go back and find the article about the discovery of the earliest type 1 close AM cent and I admit I was wrong about when the change over occured. It was in 1993 not 1994. The discovery coin was a 1992 D discovered by Colin Kusch, The article was Ken Potters Coin World Column in the 9/2/02 issue entitled Making a Transition. I haven't checked but it may still be available for reading on the Coin World website. I think they are archiving most of the articles now.

jonesy

So that's what the fuss is about. How quaint.
Glenn