Kaufman Seated Lib proofs bring Blue Sheet?

roadrunner

Imagine my surprise to see quite a number of these very nice looking all NGC 65-68 proof half dimes, dimes, quarters, and halves bring rather disappointing prices. In some cases under blue sheet. But for the most part these appeared to average around blue sheet levels at best. Since I did not see these coins in person I don't have the complete picture. If anyone has something to offer I'd be interested in hearing it.

The PCGS and NGC coins sprinkled around these Kaufman proofs didn't fair much butter either.
No doubt many of these were "traps" being dumped by their owners but certainly not all of them. A large number of PCGS type coins also brought blue sheet or under. From my recent experiences, a PCGS coin has to be damn ugly or marked up to fetch under greysheet money. From reviewing the PR's it seemed to be the exception where either service's coin brought greysheet or higher. One would have to conclude that either most of these coins (including the PCGS's) were lower end pieces that were gifts for the grade or that the money ran out and the bidders had a field day in picking off many of these coins at prices not seen at any other time during 2002. My gut feel is a combination of both but with money running out being a very real factor. This was the last of 4 auctions in a week just a month after ANA. Another forum member sent me a PM to say that he was successfull on many more lots than he thought he would be and these included some of the higher graded Kaufman proofs. Apparently it was easier to buy here.

Maybe some of the forum member dealers can shed some light on this auction where it appears prices were 10-20% off on many of the pieces.

roadrunner

tradedollarnut

I viewed the Seated Dollars and on only two did I have that "wow" effect - the 1859 and the 1873. Legend bought them both. The balance of the coins were a bit dark for my tastes (and I tend to like a toned coin over a white coin, so for others they'd be even worse).

I don't think dealers ran out of money - PCGS was super tight at the show and there were no fresh coins to buy. The quality coins at the auction went for very high prices - such as the no drapery quarter in PCGS MS65 - awesome look to that coin and it went for record money.

roadrunner

TDN,

A lot of the Kaufman proofs were also white so they probably were dipped out. They appeared to bring less than the toned ones in many cases. Maybe you hit it on the head with the coins being a bit too dark and in NGC holders scared away all the PCGS only buyers. If a coin is not a lock to be crossed over then few will take the risk to crack and resubmit to PCGS. Would you say the Kaufman proofs were pretty much maxed out? The serial numbers appear to be consecutive so while NGC may have looked upon them too favorably for the color, they don't appear to have been resubmitted.

I very much liked the look of the 1865 half in NGC PR67 and thought it would bring $15K blindfolded. Imagine my surprise when it only fetched $12650. Compared to Barbers and Proof Morgans in 68 which are 6-10X as common as PF68 WM and PF67 NM halves, and bring more money, the seated halves seem a bargain. I did bid on one of the proof 68 halves that had nice orig color and was not dark. Assuming Heritage entered my bid successfully, I got that coin. Until I hear from them I don't know.

The 1838 ND quarter in 65 appeared to be a good coin. I don't ever recall seeing one that fully struck. I pegged it at $30-35K before the sale and it brought $34,500. I don't think that was a lot of money considering there are only 2 PCGS coins in that grade. I've seen one of the NGC coins and it was an over dipped out 64+ coin. That may have been the best MS65 ND quarter around.
The few 66's that have been graded would be much more money and may not be any nicer and could have striking weaknesses too.

roadrunner

EVillageProwler

Roadrunner,

I've seen the Kaufman coins before when they were on display a couple of years ago. The astonishing thing about his Seated proofs is that he has so many pre-1858 proofs of all the denominations.

He bought for the date and the grade, not the quality.

What went on sale are his common date material. If they're of typical Kaufman quality, then they should've brought LQ money.

I ``hang'' with quite a few Seated folks, and none of us even mentioned the Kaufman coins -- because we simply didn't care.

EVP

Nic

The 1838 nm 25c. was a very nice coin. A 65 only, but original and pretty and rare as such. I last was an underbidder on this coin when it sold in the 5/01 Bowers sale of the Noblet seated quarter set ($32,200). Two strikes I guess. The Knoxville, Hayes, and Eliasberg coins are some of the higher graded examples. K

roadrunner

Nic,

Thanks for that info on the 38nd 25c. I had no idea where it came from until now. That's two people who felt this was one heckuva coin. Maybe you'll get this one on the 3rd attempt? You probably remember that NGC MS 68 piece that was on the market back in '88-90 time frame. Now that was an incredible coin. An MS 68 Washington quarter couldn't looked any fresher or been any cleaner. I think it was $225,000 back then.

roadrunner

Nic

EVP,
Yes I remember....I think it sold in one of the Apostrophe sales for 190k. NGC-68; the Knoxville coin. Unreal should not exist type of coin! Thanks for the encouragement. K

coingame2000

roadrunner,

I attended the Goldberg, Superior (missed the B&M Rarities Sale because there's only so much time) and Heritage auctions as well as maintaining my table at the Long Beach Coin Show. For the most part the Heritage Signature Sale was "soft" at best and grew progressively worse each session. The pink sheet (which a list of the unsold coins) that was passed out today was the thickest one I've ever seen, which bears testimony to a dismal auction. Did the market die??? NO! Here's my take on it...

In general prices were strong to crazy at the Goldberg sale (I only bought FOUR coins and I'm an agressive bidder)! Ditto for the Superior auction; Gem red Lincolns, Buffalo nickels, DMPL dollars, wild toned commems, etc. realized impressive prices (I think I bought about a dozen coins there that I paid through the nose for). I can't comment first hand on the Rarities sale because I wasn't there, however, I heard it was strong too! Then along came the Heritage sale. By the time session three rolled around, half-dollars through Peace dollars, things began to slow down. Really nice DMPL dollars that I had to fight for a couple of days earlier were acquired with much less competition and at lower prices, which tickled me to death and the major commem buyers (myself included) didn't come out to play.

In the final analysis I believe that after THREE strong auctions in the same week, there just wasn't enough money left to ignite the Heritage sale -- but the Long Beach show itself was certainly good. I had a great show in terms of sales and so did a number of others I spoke with who handle top-flight coins. Anyway, there you have one man's opinion.

Best Regards,

Mike De Falco

tradedollarnut

Roadrunner and Nic - if it makes you feel any better, I have it on good authority that the purchaser of the 1838 quarter was willing to go SIGNIFICANTLY higher to acquire the coin. I'm not sure he would have been outbid. It was a very nice 65 - the "look" was there!

I won one coin from the last session of the Heritage sale - an 1875 twenty cent copper pattern. Legend left a $12,000 bid for me and I got it at $5,000. I am happy that every one bailed!!!!

Nic

TDN,
The 25c. was won by an error phone bid @$36,800, the next increment. This was retracted and it then went to the current owner. I still feel a little bad . K

roadrunner

Mike and TDN,

Thanks for those insights. I guess the end of the Heritage session just may have been a good buying opportunity, now past. Good grab on that 20c piece Bruce. Maybe the lack of money will last through the
Stack's October sale. That would be nice.

roadrunner

michael

i tyink that great coins went strong!!!!!!! marginal and anything below great was not strong or very good and i think most all was not very good to marginal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also the auctions had basically for the most part marginal stuff and so the prices were marginal!!!!!!!

see my post on the ngccoin boards under the thread how was long beach?

i had other thoughts too about the show that were all true but i decided not to post them as they were not only true and right on the money but extremely controversal and would have really totally pissed some off

why should i give away some great insider information and get some mad at me!

sincerely michael

Ronyahski

Some thoughts... I agree with a prior post that by the time of this last auction, alot was already spent on the previous auction materials. That being said, there was nothing special about most of the Kaufman coins. Although I have heard he is selling off his collection over a period of time, what was offered in Heritage, for the most part, appeared to be his seconds.

I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Kaufman as a collector, but when he started his collection, he made marginal purchases, just like all of us have. The 1865 proof half, in NGC 67, is an o.k. PCGS 66 coin. So, going for 12,650 is not so bad since that is market for a PCGS 66. Alot of the coins were dark and only very average for the grade, at best.

I bought one Kaufman coin, and bought a few others (proof seated dimes) that I thought were PQ yet went for very reasonable prices. I don't think the market sotened, just a good window of timining for buyers.