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Revised version of Braddick's ethical question
Higashiyama
Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭
The lowest grade coin in your 50 piece classic commem set is an MS64 Monroe. This is a beautifully toned specimen your grandfather purchased at issue. In 1988, you inherited the coin, and sent to to PCGS to be slabbed. You are a bit surprised by the grade, but, life is life.
Roll the clock forward to 2002. You have registered your set, and are just a few steps back of Pop1. You take another look at the Monroe. It sure looks like a solid 65. You crack it out and submit it. You anxiously await the result. The grade is back -- AT !!!
You know the provenance of this coin. You know it was in a PCGS slab. You did not return the insert. Are you really obliged to pay for PCGS' error and remove the coin from your registry?
Roll the clock forward to 2002. You have registered your set, and are just a few steps back of Pop1. You take another look at the Monroe. It sure looks like a solid 65. You crack it out and submit it. You anxiously await the result. The grade is back -- AT !!!
You know the provenance of this coin. You know it was in a PCGS slab. You did not return the insert. Are you really obliged to pay for PCGS' error and remove the coin from your registry?
Higashiyama
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The question is - is the set complete or not. Honor rules I say.
Frank
<< <i>If it's not in a PCGS slab, it should not stay in the PCGS Registry. That's the rules, bottom line. >>
Wow, amazing how all of those sets are listed that have coins that have never been in PCGS holders. Must be a different set of rules.
What the heck does THAT mean? They have approximate averages?!?
Dr S D Collection of Walkers is rated 65.39. What's inexact about that?
Anyway I wouldn't take the coin out of my registry. I KNOW that it was in a
64 holder. I KNOW that PCGS made a mistake. I'm sure I would send a letter
to PCGS and I'm sure I would resubmit (several times if necessary).
-KHayse
ps I can see how people wouldn't believe me though.
The bottom line, for me- it's MY coin, but it's PCGS's Registry.
I get to play with MY coins in THEY'RE Registry, I have to follow their rules (or start my own Registry I guess).
Interesting deal with rules. You can't just obey the ones you always agree with. That is not the mark or definition of a fair player.
peacockcoins
Greg
Please reconsider! I still own the coin, and I still have the PCGS insert. This is a coin that I paid to have graded, and PCGS gave their professional opinion that it was MS64. I think I have a right to keep it is the registry.
Greg
I'm just a little surprised at the previous statements declaring "that's the rules - take it out". Unless it changed while I was at Long Beach, it is not addressed in the rules. Quit making them up as you please.
Besides, most of the coins in my registry set are only inserts I got from dealer crackouts. It's one hell of an insert set.
Troublemaker!
-KHayse
<< <i>If it's not in a PCGS slab, it should not stay in the PCGS Registry. That's the rules, bottom line. >>
Now, here is the rule as copied exactly from the rules:
In order to list your set as current, you must own the coins you are listing or be an agent with permission to represent a collection. A coin is not considered owned by you if you have sold it to another, regardless of buyback or return policies. Furthermore, this coin should be removed from your set.
If you own it and PCGS graded it, you can list it. I guess many people here just can't read.
Here it is, in case you couldn't read it:
<< <i>Each set listed as current is comprised of PCGS coins certified in accordance with our usual standards. Many of the “All-time finest” sets are comprised of PCGS coins, while others predated PCGS and were made up of uncertified coins. For these pre-PCGS sets, the grades have been estimated by our expert contributors and listed with an asterisk(*). >>
and the coin is still owned by the same person.
It does not say the coin has to be in a piece of plastic
Tim
Interesting interpretation of what "PCGS coin certified in accordance with our usual standards" means. Would someone please tell CLCT that the Childs 1804 ain't in their holder anymore so please remove all their advertising showing that they graded the coin!
If PCGS graded the coin, it's a PCGS coin, certified in accordance with their usual standards. I defy you to find anything that specifically says otherwise.
I don't work for PCGS, you'll have to talk to them why they are advertising the Childs dollar. I haven't saw the advertisement, but if all they lay claim to is that they graded the coin, that is true. They did grade the coin, but if they continue to say it's still a PCGS coin, it is not.
As far as your circumstances with the 1885 Proof Trade Dollar, I personally agree with you 100%. The estimated sets should not be a part of the Registry in my opinion. If they can place the 'estimated grade' on the coin for Eliasberg that they will fail to cross the coin at for you, it can only be other reasons that they will not do so.
To some I guess the registry is not about coins.
I am sure you can ask Rick to re-word the rules as he did after the stupid leasing thread from last year. Not sure how you plan to enforce it. Of course, PCGS will also have to re-word the description of the registry as it would be no longer about the coins. "Listings of Finest Coin Sets in Existance Today." could not apply if you are not allowing a coin in it even though PCGS graded it.
I can just imagine the "Registry Police" pounding down my door demanding to check whether my trade dollar set is still in the slabs!! While they are at it, how about evaluating all the coins in the slab for quality?
Or how about we all chill and accept the fact that if PCGS has graded it, it's eligible for the Registry although some coins are better than others in the same holder (or not) at the same grade!
If I paid for a coin in a PCGS slab, and I crack out the coin and keep both the coin and the insert, then it's my business what I do with the insert and the coin. I can put the coin in a paper flip or submit it to NGC or whatever. I can also register my coin in the Registry game.
I paid for the right to do that, and unless someone can force me to de-register my entry, then it stays.
Does anyone else here understand that?!? I paid for the coin, it's plastic and the stupid paper insert that comes with it a serial # and a grade. I PAID FOR IT, AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I PLEASE.
Anyone who disagrees is welcome to disagree. It's only a matter of opinion. But, it's only your opinion. You may even have an opinion that I give you all my coins, but that's not going to happen either.
So, bottom line: no one can tell me what to do. I paid for that right.
If anyone wants to call me a cheat or something negative, well, you can but it won't be productive nor appropriate. Remember that we're having a disagreement over the interpretation of the rules of the game, and that simply is a difference of opinion.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I want everyone to know that my best sets are not registered because they lie in several different slabs, I don't play the slab game, I buy the coin. I am trying to state how I feel PCGS would view the cracking out of a coin out their slab, it's no longer in their control after that and I have yet to see how that can be credibly argued against. Believe me, I see your point tradedollarnut and evillageprowler, and agree, it should be based on the coin, but how in the world will you ever convince any grading service that they can take someone's word that nothing has changed that coin since it has been cracked out. I'm merely speaking of the registry, not about the true finest collections out there, which I'm sure we know for the most part are not all in PCGS holders(a requisite for the PCGS Registry).
If a coin has to be removed when taken from the holder, then PCGS will have to re-market the registry as it is no longer what it is being called today. (not sure they want to do that)
Andy,
With all due respect, you don't speak for Collectors Universe. You don't get to decide on the rules of the game. You do make good points, however, and I think that people should carefully consider what you say. But, it is still *your* points and not those of CU/PCGS. Nor are they of mine.
The system, as it is currently designed, allows for such activity. (I do not call it abuse, as that is taking sides of a position and also without proof.) Since I paid for the serial # and the coin, I will do as I choose within the existing structure of the game.
It would be difficult for someone to convince me otherwise because I don't take this registry game seriously at all. It is intended to be friendly and as a nice marketing tool for the services. Any infractions of the fair play of the game is unlikely to be of Enron-esque proportion. I'd rather that we just trust each other to play well. If someone wants to win so badly by registering just the insert (when he really doesn't have the coin), then that person needs to step back and examine why he's become so competitive that he has to cheat.
There may be folks who argue against my position for financial reasons. That's fine by me, and perfectly legitimate. But, I have no sympathy for such a position because those people are choosing the holder over the coin and that point of view is anathema to me. My coins will retain the vast bulk of their value when they shed their plastic skin. In fact, many will increase in value since they are conservatively graded.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
You guys can keep trying to pick my posts apart in an attempt to discredit what I say all you want, I think it is quite humorous and so do the several other members who continue to PM me letting me know the same. This reminds me of those who complain and complain about their politicians, yet do absolutely nothing at all to change that.
You guys can keep trying to pick my posts apart in an attempt to discredit what I say all you want, I think it is quite humorous and so do the several other members who continue to PM me letting me know the same. This reminds me of those who complain and complain about their politicians, yet do absolutely nothing at all to change that.
Dude,
Take it easy... What slamming? I merely disagree with your point of view. And, please don't be saying stuff like ``read first...'' I did read first. I read everything on page 2 of this thread. I didn't go back and re-read page 1. If that's where your 2nd post is, well, then I apologize... But, I never doubted that you know that you don't speak for CU or PCGS. My point is that you speak as if you do speak for them. It's the conviction of your position that seem to project such authority.
And, besides, how about sticking to the merits? The merits being: your opinion vs my opinion vs vague CU/PCGS rules.
For what it's worth, I got PM's too that are supportive of me. No biggie, though, since I feel that this forum has a large membership and invariably people will take differing sides. It's the merits of the argument that matters most.
Don't get mad; just argue the merits. You can't though, because you can only express a personal opinion without any official backing. As logical as you try to be, all you can do is to express a personal opinion without any official backing.
I've already expressed why I disagree with you. If you don't like my reasons, please elaborate.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
In our society, we have chosen to let a few cheaters walk free in order to protect the rights of the innocent. The concept is "innocent until proven guilty" and "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".
If we change the rules then the honest participants will be the only ones harmed. The cheaters will still cheat because there's absolutely no way to verify that they aren't cheating. Therefore, I say that we err on the side of protecting the honest collector who simply desires a different method of storing his coins.
There are many varieties that PCGS simply doesn't recognize. Also, for the varieties that they DO recognize, the Registry system will not allow them to be listed in a non varietal set (which is totally foolish).
In the first instance, it would be desirable once the coin is graded to send the coin to another grading company to have it properly attributed. I would want to do this to protect my heirs from being deceived about the value of my coin in the event of my untimely passing.
In the second instance, it might be desirable to have the coin graded without the specific variety and then graded again with the specific variety. Keoj has variety coins that the PCGS system won't allow to be entered in his trade dollar set and yet they also refuse to create a trade dollar variety set. I would have no problem with him entering the non variety insert in his trade dollar set, even tho he had the coin cracked and resubmitted for variety designation.