Registry Integrity. Would you have a problem with the following scenerio?
braddick
Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭✭
What if you knew the Registry in your series, right ABOVE yours had been removed from the PCGS holders and placed into some type of capsules and/or Coin Album? The owner has all the inserts and plans to keep all the coins.
Does this infringe on the integrity of the Registry at all? Should only HOLDERED coins be allowed to be in the Registry and as soon as the coin is removed from the holder it should then be removed from the Registry?
I know there are pros and cons to this scenerio- and simply call the above Collector ecentric for doing what he did, but I'm curious as to your opinion.
Does this infringe on the integrity of the Registry at all? Should only HOLDERED coins be allowed to be in the Registry and as soon as the coin is removed from the holder it should then be removed from the Registry?
I know there are pros and cons to this scenerio- and simply call the above Collector ecentric for doing what he did, but I'm curious as to your opinion.
peacockcoins
0
Comments
Frank
Russ, NCNE
Is the integrity of the coin at issue?
Obviously once it's removed, PCGS makes no claim to the coin in regards to any warranty of grade or authenticity.
It would seem, once the coin is popped out of the PCGS protected holder it is no longer a "PCGS COIN" (don't get me wrong- I know it's YOUR coin) and if it's no longer a "PCGS COIN" should it be allowed to remain in the "PCGS Registry"?
peacockcoins
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Frank
Crack them out..... sell them.
Crack them out..... get them graded again.
Crack them out..... send them to NGC for grading.
Ect.....Ect
Most dealers could have a "Registry" set with all the cracked out inserts. Matter of fact... I have a stack of inserts from crackouts.....
For sale:
1937- D Texas Comm MS-67 $20.00 Sold!
1937- D Texas Comm MS-66 $15.00
1937- S Texas Comm MS-66 $15.00
1937- S Texas Comm MS-67 $20.00 Sold!
1937 Texas Comm MS-67 $20.00 Sold!
1938- S Texas Comm MS-66 $20.00
1935- S Texas Comm MS-66 $15.00
Will post all the Lincoln inserts later.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Personally, I really don't care what the people ahead of me do. I'm comfortable with my coins, and use the Registry for what it's supposed to be used for (friendly competition) and to showcase my collection.
Although, I see a problem with this scenario when you consider annual awards, all-time finest, etc. Spooly makes a great point that you could sell the labels on the black market for instant Registry fame. It would be a shame for someone with a true #1 set, to be outranked by someone who just bought the labels; especially for the rarer series.
Proof Dime Registry Set
As an aside, the registry is not about the finest coins - it's about PCGS promoting it's business. If you want to know who has the finest collection, arrange a "showdown" at a major show. Allow all holders/raw coins and have knowledgable collectors/dealers vote (don't ask me how people would qualify as knowledgable - that's another issue). It unfortunately becomes so cumbersome (and risky to the coin owners) that it's clear why the registry will have to serve as a flawed proxy for the "finest known collection".
not that the coin is any better or worse off but there has to be some sort of minimum requirement if you are participating and i understand it is not a perfect system as all coins are different even in the same grade holders and some lesser graded coins may even be better but i think there is more chaos of you register a set and then break the coins out
sincerely michael
Pete
After all consider this: Break a coin out of the PCGS holder and keep it in your registry set. Then, slab it with NGC. Now, the same coin is entered in both registry sets showing two entirely different serial numbers. That's a "no-no".
Wondercoin
Of course, I could send it to NGC (or sell it), but then again, that was not part of the question posed.
Enforcement is another issue. Frankly, if it were a registry I was in and I knew about the crack-out, I would ask the collector to take it out voluntarily. If he/she didn't, I would at least consider asking PCGS to make the request. Am I a tough guy? Am I a mean guy? Perhaps, but while it is a fun game for lot's of people, it is serious business to others. Those who invest thousands or even millions of dollars to get the best in the world, and want to prove it may be sick, but should also expect integrity.
If it were my coin, this is my policy. If I cracked it out for a regrade, I would send it in right away. Once the regrade came, I would delete and re-enter regardless of the new grade. If I cracked it out for other reasons, I would immediately delete.
And there it is!
Greg
Well, we already know this is not true. See the recent thread regarding estimated sets.
The Registry is about ranking coins. If a coin has been graded by PCGS it has been ranked. If PCGS has enough info to estimate the grade, it's been ranked. Whether it's still in the holder or regraded by another company is totally irrelevant - it's still the same coin. Regarding the possibility of damage, who's to say a coin hasn't turned in the PCGS holder? You just can't tell the quality of the coin in or out of the holder, so you use PCGS's grade as the starting point.
Let's say that I put my 1885 in a PCGS holder because I wanted a complete set and then cracked it out and put it back in the NGC holder. So what????? PCGS has graded it - they've assigned a ranking. It should be irrelevant what's done with the coin after they've graded it. As long as I own that coin and the condition hasn't changed, I should be able to do what I please with the insert that I paid $100 to get (short of cheating and selling the coin and keeping the insert on the Registry).
Or how about the Childs 1804 dollar? I know for a fact that coin is out of the holder. How can anyone really complain if that coin is entered into a type set on the registry? It's been graded by PCGS - it's been ranked as the number one 1804. To say it's not eligible because it's not still in the holder is as rediculous as NGC not allowing early proofs in their type set!
Russ, NCNE
Tom
Please don't start THAT whole mess again.
On an intellectual level, I have no problem with what you describe. In a perfect world
there would be nothing wrong with this.
However in THIS world I wouldn't approve at all. As everyone else has said, who's to
say the coin is in the same condition now as it was in the holder. Who's to say the
owner is still in possession of it.
I've heard of people who like to slab coins to have them authenticated and then break
them out. I suppose if you never plan on interacting with the outside world (selling
them, comparing registered collections, etc) then that's fine, although I would probably just
settle for getting an opinion from PCGS for free at one of the shows if I didn't like
my coins in slabs. I don't think you can expect people to take your word for it that they
coins you have outside of slabs match up with the collection of paper grades you have.
If you don't like slabs, don't participate in the registry.
-KHayse
ps Yeah, get rid of those estimated grade sets too.
Hard Research down the Tube. Shucks, and to think only 5 or 6 more were left to find.
If you owned the King of Siam Proof Set, which would they look better in- the PCGS holders they were in at one time, or the original presentation case?
It's an interesting question. I am of the opinion that it doesn't matter if the coins don't change hands. However, outside the protection of the slabs, the coins are subject to a variety of things that might change them, which is a sticky problem. I certainly think the King of Siam set looks better in its original case than in a bunch of modern plastic holders. (And yet I would be terrified of keeping the coins outside of the holders).
What does this have to do with the Registry? Not much. Guess I got off-track a bit.
But I'll take any excuse to look at those pictures again, LOL.
<< <i>My vote: The PCGS Registry permits PCGS slabbed coins only. Once a coin comes out of the PCGS holder, it is not a coin permitted in the PCGS Registry. It may be many other things - it just isn't a PCGS Registry coin anymore.
After all consider this: Break a coin out of the PCGS holder and keep it in your registry set. Then, slab it with NGC. Now, the same coin is entered in both registry sets showing two entirely different serial numbers. That's a "no-no".
Wondercoin >>
And the constantly misquoted rule states:
In order to list your set as current, you must own the coins you are listing or be an agent with permission to represent a collection. A coin is not considered owned by you if you have sold it to another, regardless of buyback or return policies. Furthermore, this coin should be removed from your set.
If you own it and PCGS graded it, you can list it.
Here it is, in case you couldn't read it:
<< <i>Each set listed as current is comprised of PCGS coins certified in accordance with our usual standards. Many of the “All-time finest” sets are comprised of PCGS coins, while others predated PCGS and were made up of uncertified coins. For these pre-PCGS sets, the grades have been estimated by our expert contributors and listed with an asterisk(*). >>
If a coin is not sealed by PCGS and in one of their slabs, it does not belong in the PCGS Registry. You may play semantics as you wish in whatever reasoning you have to do so, what is your reason for doing so by the way? I'm sure it's just so PCGS will more clearly define its rules so that the politically correct will have no other reason for arguing about what should be included.
I still have some inserts for sale! $5.00 discount to collectors with a Registry Set!
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Seriously, of course there are numerous loopholes and ways to get around and manipulate the PCGS Registry. If that's what some people feel is necessary to pump up their ego or whatever reason they have for making their sets look good, that's fine with me. There are loopholes in many things in life, if you want to be a cheat and have no integrity to what the Registry is designed for, have at it. I collect coins, those cheaters or whatever you want to call them can go right ahead and collect numbers and look good in the registry all they want. I don't agree with it, but suggest a suitable way how to make sure this doesn't happen and I will be all for it. I don't agree with the estimated sets, but they are there in all their inherent flaws.
It's already insane enough that the Registry is limited to one class of coinage - but the reasoning is sound. The coins are ranked under one standard of grading (as if that has actually existed over the last 14 years). But to infer that a coin graded under that standard is not worthy of inclusion just because it doesn't reside in the plastic is going one step too far!
I concur.
-KHayse
I was referring to those, meaning when I said "cheaters", those who know longer own the coin and retain its serial number in their Registry. The registry set is for coins slabbed(not in the past, not at one time, but during its inclusion in anyone's set) by PCGS.
Your previous post here,
<< <i>Hmmm... so now it's not just about the coin or the coin being graded by the right company, it's about the plastic holder around the coin. Bah! >>
That's the way it should be with the PCGS Registry and I feel that's how PCGS intended it, if they didn't feel it needed to be in their plastic, they would include raw coins or other services' coins. Also, why the need to call my opinion stupid???? Shouldn't that also refer to Typetone, raycyca, wondercoin, spooly, and on and on and on?
Edited to Add: To further clarify what I said re: "cheaters" If PCGS wanted you to add any coin to the Registry, why not let you add an NGC coin? Or whoever's ACG coin, or add a raw coin. It is inclusive to PCGS coins only, and if you do not own a coin slabbed in the PCGS slab while it is in the PCGS Registry, that is not following what I feel and others obviously, of what the PCGS Registry is for. I always thought cheat meant to do violate something dishonestly, which is what someone is knowingly doing if they place coins not slabbed by PCGS in their registry. I concur that it is stupid to think you should be able to add any coin not currently slabbed by PCGS in their registry, if not, then don't play the PCGS game or participate in their registry.
If the owner of the Childs 1804 were to choose to post his coin here I would welcome him with open arms - even tho the coin is no longer in the holder.
If I paid for a coin in a PCGS slab, and I crack out the coin and keep both the coin and the insert, then it's my business what I do with the insert and the coin. I can put the coin in a paper flip or submit it to NGC or whatever. I can also register my coin in the Registry game.
I paid for the right to do that, and unless someone can force me to de-register my entry, then it stays.
Does anyone else here understand that?!? I paid for the coin, it's plastic and the stupid paper insert that comes with it a serial # and a grade. I PAID FOR IT, AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I PLEASE.
Anyone who disagrees is welcome to disagree. It's only a matter of opinion. But, it's only your opinion. You may even have an opinion that I give you all my coins, but that's not going to happen either.
So, bottom line: no one can tell me what to do. I paid for that right.
If anyone wants to call me a cheat or something negative, well, you can but it won't be productive nor appropriate. Remember that we're having a disagreement over the interpretation of the rules of the game, and that simply is a difference of opinion.
EVP
[edited to fix typo]
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>cool, the Spooly post of approval award.
Seriously, of course there are numerous loopholes and ways to get around and manipulate the PCGS Registry. If that's what some people feel is necessary to pump up their ego or whatever reason they have for making their sets look good, that's fine with me. There are loopholes in many things in life, if you want to be a cheat and have no integrity to what the Registry is designed for, have at it. I collect coins, those cheaters or whatever you want to call them can go right ahead and collect numbers and look good in the registry all they want. I don't agree with it, but suggest a suitable way how to make sure this doesn't happen and I will be all for it. I don't agree with the estimated sets, but they are there in all their inherent flaws. >>
In the scenario of this thread who is pumping up whos ego? It looks like the person with the inferior set wants to have their sit listed as being better than a superior set. I guess we had better close this loophole!
The Rules of Registry are designed (I hope) to protect the honest collectors who are participating in the Registry competition/game. By requiring only PRESENTLY slabbed PCGS to be eligible, IMHO, PCGS best protects the honest collector out there. No one here is concerned with TDN trying to cheat anyone. But, with more than 4100 registered sets, surely there may be a couple "bad apples" out there intent on causing disruption/embarrassment to Registry?
And, if an HONEST Registry participant desires to remove his coins from the holders and not tell anyone - then there might be no harm whatsoever. But, unfortunately, in this society, rules are often not made with the law-abiding in mind.
Wondercoin.
Furthermore, what would stop people from building a paper label collection?
When I really think about, only a choice handfull of coins could be verified that they where in the holder and in the same condition, so my vote would be if it is out of the holder, it not be listed in fairness to others trying for those few top sets.
At first I thought it was okay, this thread has changed my mind.
Tony
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I must confess that I find this to be a very good point. (As if anyone really cares about *my* opinion!)
Just thinking out loud for a moment...
What does it really matter if someone cheats and puts up an entry with no coin behind it? I understand that people have spent their hard-earned money into purchasing their beloved coins, and they want to receive their due. And, no one wants to feel cheated.
But, suppose there is a cheater among us. I'm not trying to make light of this issue, but: so what? Really, I don't see what the real harm is for someone to cheat. Let's suppose I have a very nice Capped Bust Half set, but mine is just a shade behind the next better set. If I cheat and enter a serial number of a coin I do not have, and eke out a better score than that other set, so what?
What have I gained? Ok, what I *really* gained?
Suppose, as a gag, someone puts in a high ranking set of just inserts and advertises it as such. Personally, I'd find that hilarious. If someone did that without advertising it as such, well, so what? It's not like he can enjoy what he did because he can't tell anyone...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
peacockcoins
If we change the rules then the honest participants will be the only ones harmed. The cheaters will still cheat because there's absolutely no way to verify that they aren't cheating. Therefore, I say that we err on the side of protecting the honest collector who simply desires a different method of storing his coins.
If you take your coin that has been graded but cracked out back to PCGS along with the insert, they will reholder the coin at the same grade.
This indicates to me that the grade follows the coin - not the hunk of plastic around the coin. And if the grade follows the coin, then as long as you own the coin it should be able to be on the Set Registry.
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In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Not as a general rule, but on a case by case basis I believe that may be correct. After all, what if I break an ugly toned coin out of the holder, dip it and it comes out lusterless with some major ticks revealed that were nicely hidden by the tone? Who would want PCGS to put that coin back in the same holder? IS THIS THE "EXACT SAME" COIN it was before it was broken out of the holder